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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuffy View Post
    Reading bobs post got me curious, so I tried searching for the survey.

    I found this instead. Its quite interesting.
    http://www.woodworking.org/AccidentSurvey/search.htm
    Unfortunately you won't find the survey I refer to on the WWW as it comes from a refereed journal.
    This is also why I cannot put up all the results on this forum.

    In anyone has access to a Uni or other academic library this is the references
    Journal of Occupational & Environmental Medicine. 38(10):1032-1035, October 1996.

    The survey covers 283 DIY and Professional woodworkers and goes into a lot of detail especially about how much exposure and experience operators have had.
    This sort of information is rarely available in tool accident reports such as those in Kuffys links.

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  3. #17
    FenceFurniture's Avatar
    FenceFurniture is offline The prize lies beneath - hidden in full view
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Maddux View Post
    In ten years and 70,000+ saws sold worldwide, they have NEVER had a reported digit loss incident.
    What would give more perspective to this is how many times one of those 70,000 saws has actually been discharged. If it was (say) 100 with no digit loss then I guess that would be an "ok" statistic. If it was 1000 discharges, then it would give the stats significant weight (as long as they weren't rogue discharges).
    Regards, FenceFurniture

    COLT DRILLS GROUP BUY
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  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    . . . . .

    I can see a place for a SawStop in a mens shed or a newby woodworker who may be inclined to do something either silly or inappropriate because of inexperience. For nearly everyone else, common sense and care have sufficed for many years.
    I agree with this Derek, but interestingly the statistics show DIY woodworkers having proportionally fewer TS accidents than professionals.

    For the TS injuries reported, the average number of exposure hours before the first TS injury was around 1500.
    This suggests that newbies are inherently more respectful than experienced woodworkers and it is perhaps the latter that should be looking at a Sawstop?

    For comparison, the average number of exposure hours before the first injury for a jointer/planer was around 200 while for a bandsaw its around 400 and BS are every bit as quick at removing digits as a TS.

    If you have a spare $2000 to spend on reducing risks in a wood workshop there are probably much more overall effective ways to reduce overall risk.

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    Fletty saw one go for $500 (no missing zero) at an auction a few months ago in Sydney. Ah, new, unused, still in crate.

    Just thought I'd break yer heart there a little bit Luke.
    Yup, it was the sale of all machinery and tools from the closed workshop at Campbelltown (NSW) TAFE. It was 3 phase and had never even been unpacked before being disposed!
    A certain fencefurniture was shouting "BUY IT, BUY IT .....forget about the 3 phase ...it'll just go at 3 times the speed ...."

    fletty
    a rock is an obsolete tool ......... until you don’t have a hammer!

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat View Post
    ...

    One thing we have been strict with is the use of guards, something a few of the older members have had to come to terms with.
    I have a similar issue with a couple of chaps at the men's shed
    regards
    Nick
    veni, vidi,
    tornavi
    Without wood it's just ...

  7. #21
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    I_wanna_Shed is offline Now I've got a 6x7m shed! I need a new name...
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    Quote Originally Posted by fletty View Post
    Yup, it was the sale of all machinery and tools from the closed workshop at Campbelltown (NSW) TAFE. It was 3 phase and had never even been unpacked before being disposed!
    A certain fencefurniture was shouting "BUY IT, BUY IT .....forget about the 3 phase ...it'll just go at 3 times the speed ...."

    fletty
    Geez, that almost sounds like an urban myth!!! Unbelievable. When we build a new place we will definitely be getting 3 phase hooked up.

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Anyone who lives in "fear" of a tool or machine [...]
    Bob- I had hoped the overdramatic wording of that statement would highlight its lack of sincerity. I do not genuinely live in fear of the saw. I use it on most of my projects safely, confidently, and with all of the appropriate precautions, but I do acknowledge that it's a dangerous machine and if I can pay an extra thousand bucks to have it not chop off my fingers if my hand slips at the wrong moment then I am going to do it. That does NOT mean I'm going to get careless. Peoples' entire lives can be changed by the kind of injuries a table saw is capable of inflicting. Respecting the machine is a given, and "I live in fear" was just my way of indicating that I have the utmost respect for it, but I remain aware that things DO happen. It's as simple as that. Hands slip, wood moves, whatever. Fluke, one in a thousand events happen, and I don't want to be the guy who has eight and a half fingers because of one of them. You mentioned $2,000 could be better spent. That certainly could be argued, but what sets the Sawstop system apart from others in my eye is the complete, empirically observed elimination of a serious hazard from a statistical standpoint. There aren't a whole lot of things out there that are doing that. Until they get that first report of a brake failure and a removed digit - and they eventually will - this concept seems more like a "law" than a "theory". It's like a lathe that catches all of the parts of an exploding bowl EVERY single time to the point that no one has ever been hit by one. "Bowlbrake" or something like that... I'd probably buy that too, even though I always take every possible step to operate the machine safely.

    Fence - My understanding is that they have over 7,000 reports of discharges as a result of skin contact. Apparently the sensor in the brake module which causes it to discharge also records the difference in current which caused the discharge, which allows them to observe whether or not the discharge was "rogue" or genuine. I believe this is done both for statistical purposes but also because some dealers, Carbatec included, will replace the brake if it is a genuine discharge. So, theoretically, they have saved over 7,000 fingers plus however many haven't been reported. I'd say that holds weight. It does for me.

    Derek - It certainly sounds like that guy has had a rough go of it. It does, however, sound like he was using his saw in a considerably heavier capacity than I will and also relying on it for his income. There's always going to be a bad review or two I suppose. I'd love to make furniture building my income one day, but I would still likely want the peace of mind of the braking system, especially given the statistic about the pros being more likely to remove digits.

    Bob again - What are the stats about incident severity? Yes, several machines have vastly higher occurrences of injuries, but how many resulted in losses of one or more knuckles, etc.? I understand that I'm basing my purchase (which I made today) on statistics and that's exactly what you're giving me, so I don't mean to sound as though I'm trying to debunk one set and not the other, but I also know I'm not the only person who thinks that the table saw is a digit remover. This is a long-standing and common idea surrounding the machine. A lot of people know someone with a mangled or missing finger from a table saw accident. What is the precedent for this idea if it stands in opposition to empirical observation? Again, I assure you these questions are genuine and not rhetorical.

    And who are all of these people hurting themselves with drill presses? That's a weird statistic...

    Cheers,
    Luke

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Maddux View Post
    Bob- I had hoped the overdramatic wording of that statement would highlight its lack of sincerity. I do not genuinely live in fear of the saw. I use it on most of my projects safely, confidently, and with all of the appropriate precautions, but I do acknowledge that it's a dangerous machine and if I can pay an extra thousand bucks to have it not chop off my fingers if my hand slips at the wrong moment then I am going to do it. That does NOT mean I'm going to get careless. Peoples' entire lives can be changed by the kind of injuries a table saw is capable of inflicting.
    Sure I guessed that, but it was "newbies" I was directing my response to.
    In OHS parlance anyone that is "fearful" of a machine should not be using it. The should seek more training , or supervised practice, or not use it.

    Respecting the machine is a given, and "I live in fear" was just my way of indicating that I have the utmost respect for it, but I remain aware that things DO happen. It's as simple as that. Hands slip, wood moves, whatever. Fluke, one in a thousand events happen, and I don't want to be the guy who has eight and a half fingers because of one of them. You mentioned $2,000 could be better spent. That certainly could be argued, but what sets the Sawstop system apart from others in my eye is the complete, empirically observed elimination of a serious hazard from a statistical standpoint.
    Well unfortunately it doesn't even come close at eliminating all TS injuries - based on the following it appears it may cover about 50% of them.

    Just for fun I checked the first 149 TS accident reports that Kuffy's link refers to and they show
    Cut requiring stitches or worse 39%
    Kickback 38%
    Minor cut/nick 9%
    Other 5%
    Near Miss (mostly kick back related) 9%

    A Kuffy says the reports themselves are quite interesting.
    From what is written (funny how those reporting are quite happy to say how stupid they are) very few are "Accidents" but rather "people doing foolish things like not using a push stick.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Maddux View Post

    And who are all of these people hurting themselves with drill presses? That's a weird statistic...
    drill presses are devious little buggers. they look harmless enough until your drilling steel and it grabs as it punches through the bottom of the hole. the clever blokes bother to clamp the steel down. the not so clever blokes like the guy i see in the mirror each morning thinks he will probably "get lucky" and save himself 30seconds of time instead of setting up a clamp. 7 band aids later, i learnt my lesson. it was steel strapping I was drilling. this was the worst self-inflicted 'accident' (aka, deliberate self mutilation by way of 'time is money") i have done to myself so far. and yes, i knew damn well what was probably going to happen before i even picked up the drill bit.

    I think you have done well with your purchase of the sawstop. apart from the misfires, they seem to be a great saw. give it enough time, and that kind of system or similar will be common place. on 3 occasions i have crashed into the side of the spinning panel saw blade. no injury resulted.

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuffy View Post
    drill presses are devious little buggers. they look harmless enough until your drilling steel and it grabs as it punches through the bottom of the hole. the clever blokes bother to clamp the steel down. the not so clever blokes like the guy i see in the mirror each morning thinks he will probably "get lucky" and save himself 30seconds of time instead of setting up a clamp. . . . . .
    Work holding issues are the most common reasons for injuries
    Other injuries are:
    Scalping due to hair getting caught in the drill/work,
    Gloves/jewelry/clothing etc getting caught in the work.
    Metal/Wodd Chips in eyes
    Holding the underneath of the work by hand and drilling holes into fingers and hands


    Here is a near miss by me.
    I was drilling a hole in thick steel plate at slow speed with a large (20+mm) new very sharp bit.
    I was wearing ear muff so I could not hear the motor running.
    The bit fell out of the MT and I reached up and thought I had turned off the drill.
    I then picked up the bit and holding it very firmly I rammed it into the MT.
    I did not realize the MT was still turning so it grabbed and tore the bit out of my hand.
    Luckily it was not turning fast as it would have taken all the skin and tendons off the inside of my hand.
    Just a couple of nicks - still bled like a stick pig.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Maddux View Post
    Apparently the sensor in the brake module which causes it to discharge also records the difference in current which caused the discharge, which allows them to observe whether or not the discharge was "rogue" or genuine.
    I find this comment interesting - it's odd that the recorded "difference in current" can be used to determine if the discharge was rogue or genuine after the fact, however the saw can't use it to determine whether or not to discharge in the first place.
    Cheers.

    Vernon.
    __________________________________________________
    Bite off more than you can chew and then chew like crazy.

  13. #27
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    Default Sawstop Feedback

    Vermonv, yes interesting. Perhaps it's a performance thing, where to analyze the data at point of impact would delay the firing too much.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    Fletty saw one go for $500 (no missing zero) at an auction a few months ago in Sydney. Ah, new, unused, still in crate......
    I still cannot get by it being sold for only $500.

    I think I need to take Fletty with me when I go shopping.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Maddux View Post
    Ok i may be way behind the curve on this, but I was altogether unaware of Sawstop as a brand and as a safety design. Now that they have come to Australia via Carbatec I'm sold and will be buying one tomorrow. I live in fear of my tablesaw and the peace of mind is worth it, not to mention my fingers.


    Luke
    The last time this was brought up on this forum the price of the SS cabinet saw was close to a Hammer or Minimax slider and I know which I would rather have and the SS would not be it. The SS only takes the direct injury from from finger/hand contact the slider removes that as well as taking the danger of kick back away as well. Kick back has caused at least as many injuries as direct blade contact and most probably more.
    CHRIS

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    The last time this was brought up on this forum the price of the SS cabinet saw was close to a Hammer or Minimax slider and I know which I would rather have and the SS would not be it. The SS only takes the direct injury from from finger/hand contact the slider removes that as well as taking the danger of kick back away as well. Kick back has caused at least as many injuries as direct blade contact and most probably more.
    Have a look at my quick and dirty survey above - it appears to be about 50%.

    Posters need to be careful about their choice of words when discussing these things
    I disagree that the slider "removes" the risk of cutting. Perhaps a better phase is "reduces the risk"
    People - even very experienced ones will always find a way to injure themselves
    A cabinet maker friend of ours with 40 years experience had a fully professional sliding saw at his business.
    It was just a few days before he was going to retire and he was cutting up some scrap with the saw.
    He finished cutting and there were a couple of small pieces of wood on the table next to the blade.
    He was distracted talking to another staff member and thought the blade had stopped so he went to flick the pieces of wood off the table and took 3 fingers off.
    Great way to start a retirement.

    Professional woodworkers also have a relatively higher incidence of TS injuries compared to other types of WW injuries than DIY - presumably professionals are more likely to posses sliders - one would think if sliders were that good there would be fewer TS injuries?

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