Thread: Table Saw Safety

If you remove those "sticky out bits" from the saw you might just find that the saw will remove some of yours in the future.
Despite what has been written here and elsewhere by others, operating a table saw without a splitter is just asking for a kickback. To operate without a blade guard means that you think you will be concentrating 100% ALL the time in future, and will never put your hand in the wrong place.

Dont't even consider it. Do the extra work on the surround table.

Grunt,

I agree with most of the points made in the article you posted. I have to admit that, although I tried, when I first started using my table saw, to always keep the blade guard and splitter in place, I soon found that there were so many occasions when they had to be removed, that I eventually took to using it without them. On the other hand, I invariably use a long push stick of the type that sits on top of the board, and I am vigilant for any sign that the kerf is tending to bow and close behind the blade. If I see that happening, I turn the saw off, remove the board, and then start the cut again, and, if necessary, insert a wedge into the kerf to keep it open. I don't think it is feasible to follow kenmil's advice to always keep the guard in place, especially when cutting small or narrow pieces.

I have recently made a splitter out of a piece of aluminium bar stock, which is quick and easy to remove when necessary. I have also made the Wayne Davy guard, but I use it mainly as a dust collecting device when ripping wide boards. When ripping small and narrow pieces, I remove it, since it gets in the way of my primary safety device, the push stick. A zero-clearance table insert is another essential safety device.

There is a good article on safe techniques of cutting small and narrow pieces on the table saw in the current Fine Woodworking (#169).

Probably the most important safety rule with the table saw is never to use it unless you are fully alert and able to give it 100% concentration. If your concentration is affected by fatigue, stress, or alcohol, the machine will punish you without mercy.

I suspect that this thread is in the wrong forum.

Rocker

Rocker,

I agree with you about the zero clearance insert. If you think you can see a kickback coming , you are kidding yourself. It will happen in less time than you can blink, and by then it will be all over. I also worry that you refer to your push stick as your "primary safety device". All a push stick does is keep your appendages away from the blade, but it does not prevent kickbacks; in fact, if you exert pressure on your push stick incorrectly, you may cause a kickback !

I only ever remove my guard and splitter when I am using a dado blade, and frankly, I can't think of any other time when you would need to.

Anyway, there will always be those who think they can operate a table saw without safety devices, and the longer they do it, the more reassured they are that their approach is correct - until they lose some part of their body.
It's a tough way to find out you are wrong.

Norm has a lot of table saw hours under his belt but interestingly he still has all his digits, or else he has a ‘stand-in’ to do the hand shots!

I recently found that my Delta pivoting guard tends to deflect ‘rear edge’ upwards with thicker pieces of timber, failing to ride over the top, and becomes a wedge. The natural tendency is to flick it back into position with your right hand whilst still guiding the timber past the blade. That tendency could be extremely dangerous. I therefore feel that some safety devices could well lead to personal injury. The Delta blade guard may work well with thin sheet material but consistently won’t ride over thick timber or an ‘Incra’ mitre gauge. In such instances it is far safer to remove the guard.

“…the most important safety rule with the table saw is never to use it unless you are fully alert and able to give it 100% concentration….”

I think Rocker has the right approach and that is to develop a healthy awareness to the dangers of saw components and promote personal safety rules or risk management practices. I find that lengthy periods of job activity lead to complacency. To overcome this I have developed a process of ‘productivity assessment’. If I find that my performance is tending towards ‘slips’ I break for coffee. Five or ten minutes outside the shed allows a fresh approach on return. Less timber wastage too!

This is one of those threads that will never have the 'right' answer. There are times that you just have to remove the safety devices, even if it is only when you use a dado blade.
Because we are all individuals we also have different preferences and perceptions of safety etc. So no matter what one says on this, there will always be those that have a different view and quite rightly so.
My view is: Use whatever you feel you need and are comfortable with and I'll use whatever I feel I need and feel comfortable with..........that way only I am responsible for the outcome of my actions. So many people are like some do gooders...preach one thing and do another..............

When things go wrong you only have yourself to blame....can't pass the buck!

Happy sawing
Cya
Joe

Oops, wrong forum. Can someone who can, move it to general woodworking. Thanks.

From reading the above, gatiep is right, getting everyone to agree will be like getting everyone to agree on cyclones.

I need to think a bit more on the subject.

kenmil,

If you have found a way to push narrow pieces of wood safely past the saw blade with the guard still in place, good on you. I don't see how you could use a push stick without removing the guard, if the fence is 20 mm or less from the blade.

I would contend that kick-back is not something that happens unpredictably. It only happens if the kerf in the workpiece is pinching the back of the blade; if a badly adjusted fence is pinching the workpiece between it and the back of the blade; if the workpiece is pushed obliquely rather than parallel to the plane of the blade; or possibly, if a loose fragment of wood gets trapped between the workpiece and the blade or between the workpiece and the fence. If you are vigilant to ensure that none of these conditions can occur, then kickback will not occur either. When kick-back is about to occur there are usually warning signs, either a lot of smoke, or the far end of the board starting to lift. I would also argue that a long, shoe-type push stick can prevent kick-back, because it can hold the board firmly in contact with the saw table.

In many years of woodworking, during which I have made about 60 items of furniture, I have had only one kick-back incident; that happened because I was following an inherently dangerous procedure that an author recommended in an article, mentioning that it was hazardous. In retrospect I should never have done what was recommended, because, as I later realized, there was a perfectly safe way of achieving the same result. I was fortunate that I escaped without injury, but the incident made me think much more carefully about kick-back.

Rocker

The business of ripping on a tablesaw scares the daylights out of me. I approach my tablesaw with the deepest of respect, usually bowing three times beforehand. I have known to polish its mechanism, anoint it with oils and other elixers of life, adjust the fence for binding and check the blade for straightness. I tenderly remove its crown ... blade and cleanse it with oven cleaner, removing the tars that stick and so intefere with the miracle of cutting. I know that if I do not do the above, The Tablesaw (please note the respect denoted by the use of Capital letters) will punish me for my lack of faith and cast its wrath my way.

Like Rocker, I have been rewarded for my years of good faith with the absence of injury. But The Tablesaw has shown me His power on a few occasions, hurling bolts of energy that impaled themselves in the wall behind me! Such is the Glory that I now tremble at the memory!

I agree with Ken that it is not possible to always be sure that you have taken all necessary precautions. The problem with using a pushstick is just that it can, and does, cause the timber to slide unevenly towards the blade, and when subsequent binding occurs, The Tablesaw becomes mighty Angry!

The point made by Rocker about lifting the guard when ripping narrow pieces is an issue of relevance. We all do this. I tend to add a secondary fence and make bloody sure that I have finger boards tight against the timber.

I am thinking of installing a second splitter and am just trying to work out a design. It needs to be something like a pop-up splitter, adjustable for height, and to be able to be used independently from the guard (since this comes off for dados and small pieces of timber).

Any ideas?

Regards from Perth

Derek

As an aside try this link... http://www.woodshopdemos.com/Safe-3.htm

It is a pity that many of these safety items are so expensive. I guess you need to balance cost against personal safety. The more you use the table saw the greater your exposure. I look at other alternatives - bandsaw, router and so forth.

Originally posted by gatiep
This is one of those threads that will never have the 'right' answer.

Happy sawing
Cya
Joe

I know what you mean Joe, but I am not entirely convinced that is so. I can't recall hearing about anyone losing fingers whilst operating a table saw with a saw guard in place. On the other hand, nearly all those who have met with this nasty injury on a table saw had removed the guard. Not much left to argue about really.

Of course, as you point out it is a matter of personal choice, and I don't want to sound like I am preaching, but I just can't understand people taking unnecessary risks.

Originally posted by Rocker
kenmil,

If you have found a way to push narrow pieces of wood safely past the saw blade with the guard still in place, good on you. I don't see how you could use a push stick without removing the guard, if the fence is 20 mm or less from the blade.

Rocker

I simply wouldn't do that. I would be using a bandsaw or a handsaw.

Originally posted by Rocker

I would contend that kick-back is not something that happens unpredictably.


Rocker

Rocker, that is precisely when it does happen. Otherwise we would never be surprised by it !

Originally posted by Rocker

In many years of woodworking, during which I have made about 60 items of furniture, I have had only one kick-back incident;

Rocker

Ahh... the "many years experience" story. Rocker, most of the folk with less than 10 digits have many years of experience; those with little experience are too scared of the equipment to take risks.

Anyway, as pointed out by someone else, it is all a matter of personal choice. I sincerely hope you never meet with an accident that proves how wrong you are.

I like touch typing, playing musical instruments and picking my nose, which means that I prefer to have all my digits attached in their correct locations for the rest of my life if possible.

I also like using my table saw and often with a sled of some description, is it possible to rig an effective guard for that circumstance? I have a sled design which covers the blade on exit, and I have changed the texture in the area of the blade to remind my thumbs not to be there, but.........

I am not sure either with regard to using the band saw for fine ripping and would love more feedback, I guess I just need more experience; I think they are insidious bloody things which don't make enough noise to scare me, but are still the butchers machine of choice for cutting up bits of animal!

cheers,

P

Ken

Thats exactly my point, nobody needs to convince you and because people are individuals, unfortunately you won't convince others either.
We are all creatures of habits, some good and some bad habits. Millions of dollars are spent on the antismoking campaign and people still smoke..............so mate no matter how hard you try there will always be three camps......... those that use guards, those that don't and those that remove them occasionally.

I have seen digitals removed by saws without guards but I have also applied first aid to a guy that cut his thumb off while cutting through a 50 mm board with the guard in place.
Its known as an accident.........they happen, guards, no guards, just like safety belts in cars may save some lives, people still die even using them. Nothing is absolutely accident proof, not the Apollo mission, the Concorde or something as simple as walking.
We can only take whatever steps we deem necessary to minimise the risk.
Those steps are the individuals choice.

On a brighter note tomorrow is a public holiday in WA!! So shed here I come!
Cya
Joe

Ken,

There are an awful lot of folk engaged in far more dangerous occupations than risking a few digits on the table saw. To some people an ‘on the job’ lack of concentration could result in serious injury or even death. Power workers are a typical example but with careful risk management and adherence to rules the risk can be negated. Crossing a busy road can be deadly at other than a pedestrian crossing and I’ll bet you have had to run that gauntlet a few times!

Like Rocker I too have experienced kickback from the table saw but recognised the possibility beforehand and took every step to avoid injury, and I still stand clear of the firing line when ripping timber! As alluded above the use of guards and other devices can create a false sense of security. The guard itself may just catch or obstruct at a bad moment creating a distraction resulting in injury to a worker who thought he was safe!

I’m all for the use of guards when they do their job with safety, but I also favour their removal for a specific task if their very presence could hinder the primary task of safely cutting wood. As for taking unnecessary risks it is very easy to modify handling technique to work around the risk of an unguarded saw blade by using push sticks, feather boards and other accessories and even practising the cut with the saw switched off and the blade lowered. As an aside I use a homemade guard over the dado cutter, otherwise I use the router. A cut digit from the saw may be repairable but I wouldn’t hold out much hope after mangling with a dado set!

“…Norm has a lot of table saw hours under his belt but interestingly he still has all his digits, or else he has a ‘stand-in’ to do the hand shots!”

That is no mean feat considering that he works in front of lights and cameras and probably directs most of the angles himself. He also gives a running commentary with an unguarded whirring blade just inches from his hands. I’m sure he practices more ‘shop safety’ than wearing his bifocals!