Thread: New table saw - SawStop vs others

Other than the blade brake technology I don't believe you get anything more in a SawStop than is available in a high end Carbatec, Harvey or Laguna cabinet saw. There are probably a few other brands that this applies to as well.

At the current sale price the Carbatec saw looks like exceptional value to me. Hate to imagine what it will cost once it's no longer on sale and the recent drop in our dollar comes home to roost.

Originally Posted by aldav

Other than the blade brake technology I don't believe you get anything more in a SawStop than is available in a high end Carbatec, Harvey or Laguna cabinet saw. There are probably a few other brands that this applies to as well.

At the current sale price the Carbatec saw looks like exceptional value to me. Hate to imagine what it will cost once it's no longer on sale and the recent drop in our dollar comes home to roost.

Sorry, but I disagree with the 1st part of your statement. I recently did a lot of research before purchasing my SS PCS, including directly comparing them out in-store (particularly the Laguna Dovetail Fusion. Not the Harvey), and IMHO the SS is noticeably better than the other brands in nearly every department (e.g. fit and finish, paint/powder coating, smoothness of raising/lowering mechanism, knobs, etc). I was particularly disappointed with the Laguna Dovetail Fusion and it seems to me that their quality has gone down from when I first purchased the original Fusion. I would argue that the SS would have to be on the top tier when it comes to quality for traditional table saws (i.e. not including the sliders and combo machines from Europe e.g. Felder, Minimax, etc). I can''t say if it's better or worse than Powermatic saws which I hear are top notch.

I do agree with you that the Carbatec is exceptional value especially at its current sale price. To be honest, I didn't really inspect this saw too in-depth in-store as I ruled it out very early in my selection process as it only has 2.5hp and the rails only came in 30" and 50" so I can't really comment on it's fit and finish or raise/lowering mechanism. To me 30" is simply not enough ripping capacity and 50" is too much. My old Laguna Fusion had 52" capacity and I found that I never needed it. I reckon 36" is the probably the perfect size for most hobbyists and there's not too many options out there available. 36" is enough to install a router table wing without having to remove a cast iron wing.

IMO, one of the selling point of the SS saws is their mobility especially with the HD mobile base. I know it's an expensive addition (around $600 IIRC) but the "equivalent" mobility base for the other saws came to $450 and didn't provide the same maneuverability or ease of use. You had to unbrake each wheel on the corner plus the outrigger. With the SS, you don't even have to move from your operating position at the front of the saw. It's just a matter of pumping the pedal a few times and you can push/pull the saw in any direction and it doesn't even matter if you have the other attachments (cast iron router wing, crosscut sliding table. overarm dust guard, outfeed table, etc). IMO, for any woodworker where space is an issue (i.e. most hobbyists working out of a double garage), there is no better solution. Often I have to move the saw a foot to the left/right/front/back to clear an obstruction and the SS makes it so much easier to do this. Keep in mind, I see no reason that one couldn't modify the SS HD mobility base to use on the other brands.

My only regret is I didn't buy this as my 1st saw. But I'm very lucky that I managed to buy a 2nd hand version with HD mobile base + dust collection arm for only about $650 over what the new Carbatec cost with mobility base and delivery. But I was prepared to buy the saw new as it was the only one that I could find that met all of my needs. The safety aspect wasn't even one of my major considerations. YMMV.



Cheers,
Mike

Jesus H Christ! The price of the cabinet Sawstops is absolutely outrageous!

Last I looked they were $3500 to $4000.

Now they are $6300 to $7300 !!!!!

Man, thats a BIG pill to swallow.

Yeah they've gone crazy the last few years with the falling AUD.

Another contrary opinion - Having compared the SS 3HP to my new Harvey I think people vastly overstate the fit and finish of the SS as a way to justify the price. I'd be hard pressed to find any difference and in fact my Harvey weighs about 50ish kgs more than the equivalent from Sawstop. Do with that what you will. I will never own one purely based on their business practices and price gouging here in Australia. Same goes for their parent company.

Pictures of my version of the safest table saw guard, apart from the Sawstop braking system.
IMG_20200501_170029.jpgIMG_20200501_170214.jpgIMG_20200501_170520.jpg
The pic on right shows the vise details, sitting above bench but not in working position. The lower vise jaw must be firmly clamped to the bench.

For safest operation, the guard should be set as low as possible, to just clear the work piece. This leaves minimum opportunity for fingers to stray under the guard.
Your safe working procedure should include: ALWAYS USE THE GUARD AND A PUSHSTICK, and preferably a featherboard. NEVER REACH UNDER THE GUARD.
If you want to add another level of safety, an electrical interlock could be added to prevent the saw from starting unless the guard is over the blade. This would need an electrician to figure out.
If the guard is extending from behind the fence for ripping wide stock, this prevents a low position, so hands are not as well protected. Whenever possible it is best to mount the guard on opposite side of bench/blade, as shown in pics.
This type of guard can be used for grooving, rebating, and ripping narrow strips with the aid of a thin ply push stick. The transparent cover can slide across to the side of the table, to allow easy access for setting blade height or fence position. Always be sure to cover the blade before starting the saw.
I have used this guard over a few years, following the procedure above, and have had no accidents or near-misses.
Rob

Originally Posted by bueller

Yeah they've gone crazy the last few years with the falling AUD.

......I think people vastly overstate the fit and finish of the SS as a way to justify the price.

It was the exact opposite for me. The Laguna Dovetail was on the top of my list and I was initially reluctant to increase my budget to $5000 and the finish/quality of the sawstop was one of the things that changed my mind. The Laguna Dovetail was the saw that I had originally lusted after when I bought the original Fusion and I had already but decided that it would be what I was upgrading to. The salesman talked up the smoothness of its raising/lowering/bevelling action and I had to wait for the next shipment before I could inspect it in person. As far as I was concerned it was merely a formality. It was only after careful inspection and comparison of the smoothness of their actions that I changed my mind.

Originally Posted by AndrewMP

Hi all
Sorry for a topic that has been done to death!

I am looking to buy a new (not second hand, see below) table saw, something that will last me a long time, and my main two options at the moment are:
1. Professional SawStop (36 or 52" fence), currently just over $5000 https://www.carbatec.com.au/sawstop-...-t-glide-fence
2. Carbatec 10" saw (30 or 50" fence), currently just under $2000 Carbatec Professional 250mm Cabinet Saw with 30" T-Glide Fence Kit | Carbatec
--> other similar saws to Carbatec.

My main question is- other than the "saw stop" aspect of the SawStop, what are you getting for the +150% price tag? The safety feature of not cutting my hand up is great, but I've had a bit of experience with my old Dewalt 744 site saw, and know to respect the blade, and that not touching the spinning-death-wheel is only one of many tablesaw (and other machinery) safety considerations.

I already have several blades and a dado stack with a 5/8" arbour, so I'm not sold on stepping up to a 30mm arbour. That said, I'm not sure if my blades will be compatible with the SS sensors.

I really like the look/features of the SawStop, but need a bit of convincing that the extra money is well spent on the saw, as opposed to some other equipment for the workshop.

Reason for not buying second hand:I don't have time to look around and keep up with all the items on gumtree etc; I don't have time to go and inspect each saw; I would rather something with warrenty; I would rather something that I can get delivered; I don't have the ability/knowhow to tune up/fix a second hand saw (thinking about really old iron here).

I was in Carbatec again this arvo and I took the opportunity to have a closer look at the Carbatec saw as I was starting to second guess myself due to what others have written. I didn't "look under the bonnet" or anything like that as I didn't have the time, but even from a distance it is quite obvious that these two saws are in entirely different leagues. IMO, the Carbatec is not even in the same tier as the Laguna Dovetail which I believe is below the SS PCS w/36" T-Glide rail Rail.

Like I said, I didn't have the time to thoroughly check the saw out but in what little time I did have I noticed the following obvious differences:
- the raising/lowering (didn't check bevelling) action is much coarser on the Carbatec
- the handwheel had more play and was cheaper and not as well finished.
- the rail on the Carbatec is much smaller in terms of cross-section and I believe wall thickness. I didn't have a ruler but the SS measures 75mm x 50mm (3" x 2") and the Carbatec I guesstimate to be 50mm x 35mm (see pics below).
- the angle iron that the rail mounts on and the rear rails are smaller both in height and width on the Carbie and looks to be thinner gauge of steel. The SS is 75mm high and 60mm wide and the Carbie is probably 50 x 50 ?
- the rail of the Carbatec didn't come with an endcap (not sure if it comes with it or if the floor model's has just fallen out).
- the powdercoating or enamel paint is thicker and glossier on the SS.
- the auxillary table on the Carbatec is clearly inferior with the top screwed from above. (see pics)
- the fence of the Carbatec is much narrower (40mm maybe?) and lighter and had more flex than the SS. I don't think it would even be possible to mount my Jessem table saw guides on it.
- the fence of the SS rides and clamps on polished steel (i.e. unpainted or un-powdercoated) "strips". See 3rd pic of my saw. I'm not sure why SS did this (prob for smoothness or durability?) but I don't think any of the other manufacturers do.
- judging by the pics, the Carbatec's tape measure hasn't been installed on the floor model. I would guess you would have to apply it yourself. And unless I'm mistaken, I think the SS tape comes installed from the factory. I bought mine secondhand so I'm not 100% sure but the tape on mine is quite thick and it doesn't look to be owner-installed.
- Carbatec --> made in China; SS --> made in Taiwan


20200506_133125.jpg 20200506_133208.jpg 20200506_175238.jpg

These some of the differences that I noticed in my quick inspection. It is quite obvious that the Carbatec has been built to a budget and compromises have obviously been made. Whether they've made compromises to critical parts is anyone's guess. And I'm not saying that SawStop haven't compromised (one just has to look at their included mitre gauge to know that they have), but you can tell that more thought (design and engineering) and more care and attention to detail has gone into their table saws. If you need further proof of this, you simply have to look at the many unboxing videos on YouTube to see how much care that they've put into their packaging (colour-coded and screws/parts in separate clamshell packaging for each step) and instructions. I like to think that if SS has put that level of care into the departments that are usually first compromised, then they're less likely to compromise in the areas that really matter (motor, electronics, trunnions, bearings, belts, etc). It's just a well-designed and well-built saw. Some of it's plusses you'll only learn from extended use and not evident even from a thorough inspection. What I'm talking about here are things like ease of changing the riving knife/blade guard. Most saws offer toolless changes these days (as was my Laguna) but none would be easier or faster than the SS. Another example is how easy it is to adjust the table parallel to the blade (there's a centre pin which the table pivots on that makes it easier, or at least I'm told as I haven't had to adjust mine as it was bang on). It's little things like these that set the SawStop saws apart.

I can't for the life of me believe anyone could argue that there's no discernible difference in quality between a $2000 saw and a $5000 saw. It's not even commercially realistic in this day and age where consumers have access to so many buying tools (YT videos, review sites, forums, etc). There's a well-known saying that you get what you paid for. It's a well known saying because it is generally true. Even a lay person who knew nothing about table saws would be able to tell that they're leagues apart.

Look, I'm not saying the Carbatec is a bad saw. I would even call it a good saw and a great value at it's current price. It's just the SS is an excellent saw. Is it a $3000 better saw? Well, that's up to everyone to decide for themselves depending on their needs and what values they place on certain aspects. Which saw suits you will depend on your needs and intended use. If you're mainly going to be cutting softwood or thin Aussie HW, then the Carbatec should meet your needs. But if you're going to be regularly cutting thick Aussie HW, I would recommend the get the most powerful saw your budget allows. Even then I normally take multiple passes except when I need the best finish on the cut edge. I advise that you check the saws out personally before making any decision. Don't just go on the specs on-line as they can be unreliable and will only tell you so much.

Anyhoo, that's all for now. If you need me to check out the Carbatec saw more thoroughly, just let me know as I'll be going back to Carbatec next week.



Cheers,
Mike

I should have one of the Carbatec jobbies with the 30" T-Glide fence turning up at the local depot for pick up tomorrow, so given a couple of weeks I should be able to give a report on the saw in action. Of course I won't be comparing it to a SS but instead my previous saw, a HAFCO SB-12, so I'll be looking at it from below rather than above. I'm just looking forward to a quick detach blade guard and a low profile riving knife. Removing and replacing the guard on the SB-12 is a huge PITA.

Originally Posted by Biggus

I should have one of the Carbatec jobbies with the 30" T-Glide fence turning up at the local depot for pick up tomorrow, so given a couple of weeks I should be able to give a report on the saw in action. Of course I won't be comparing it to a SS but instead my previous saw, a HAFCO SB-12, so I'll be looking at it from below rather than above. I'm just looking forward to a quick detach blade guard and a low profile riving knife. Removing and replacing the guard on the SB-12 is a huge PITA.

Mate, I apologise to you and all the Carbatec owners out there if I seemed overly critical. That was not my intent. I'm sure you will be happy with it. It's a step up from my 1st saw (the original Laguna Fusion) which had an aluminium front rail and only 2hp. And I reckon the Carbie is even better than the current and more expensive Laguna Fusion 2 ($2499) which has 1.75hp and aluminium rail. Someone wrote that the Carbie can do 90% of what the SS PCS can do at half the price, and I reckon that's probably spot on.

Originally Posted by KahoyKutter

I was in Carbatec again this arvo and I took the opportunity to have a closer look at the Carbatec saw as I was starting to second guess myself due to what others have written. I didn't "look under the bonnet" or anything like that as I didn't have the time, but even from a distance it is quite obvious that these two saws are in entirely different leagues. IMO, the Carbatec is not even in the same tier as the Laguna Dovetail which I believe is below the SS PCS w/36" T-Glide rail Rail.

Like I said, I didn't have the time to thoroughly check the saw out but in what little time I did have I noticed the following obvious differences:
- the raising/lowering (didn't check bevelling) action is much coarser on the Carbatec
- the handwheel had more play and was cheaper and not as well finished.
- the rail on the Carbatec is much smaller in terms of cross-section and I believe wall thickness. I didn't have a ruler but the SS measures 75mm x 50mm (3" x 2") and the Carbatec I guesstimate to be 50mm x 35mm (see pics below).
- the angle iron that the rail mounts on and the rear rails are smaller both in height and width on the Carbie and looks to be thinner gauge of steel. The SS is 75mm high and 60mm wide and the Carbie is probably 50 x 50 ?
- the rail of the Carbatec didn't come with an endcap (not sure if it comes with it or if the floor model's has just fallen out).
- the powdercoating or enamel paint is thicker and glossier on the SS.
- the auxillary table on the Carbatec is clearly inferior with the top screwed from above. (see pics)
- the fence of the Carbatec is much narrower (40mm maybe?) and lighter and had more flex than the SS. I don't think it would even be possible to mount my Jessem table saw guides on it.
- the fence of the SS rides and clamps on polished steel (i.e. unpainted or un-powdercoated) "strips". See 3rd pic of my saw. I'm not sure why SS did this (prob for smoothness or durability?) but I don't think any of the other manufacturers do.
- judging by the pics, the Carbatec's tape measure hasn't been installed on the floor model. I would guess you would have to apply it yourself. And unless I'm mistaken, I think the SS tape comes installed from the factory. I bought mine secondhand so I'm not 100% sure but the tape on mine is quite thick and it doesn't look to be owner-installed.
- Carbatec --> made in China; SS --> made in Taiwan


20200506_133125.jpg 20200506_133208.jpg 20200506_175238.jpg

These some of the differences that I noticed in my quick inspection. It is quite obvious that the Carbatec has been built to a budget and compromises have obviously been made. Whether they've made compromises to critical parts is anyone's guess. And I'm not saying that SawStop haven't compromised (one just has to look at their included mitre gauge to know that they have), but you can tell that more thought (design and engineering) and more care and attention to detail has gone into their table saws. If you need further proof of this, you simply have to look at the many unboxing videos on YouTube to see how much care that they've put into their packaging (colour-coded and screws/parts in separate clamshell packaging for each step) and instructions. I like to think that if SS has put that level of care into the departments that are usually first compromised, then they're less likely to compromise in the areas that really matter (motor, electronics, trunnions, bearings, belts, etc). It's just a well-designed and well-built saw. Some of it's plusses you'll only learn from extended use and not evident even from a thorough inspection. What I'm talking about here are things like ease of changing the riving knife/blade guard. Most saws offer toolless changes these days (as was my Laguna) but none would be easier or faster than the SS. Another example is how easy it is to adjust the table parallel to the blade (there's a centre pin which the table pivots on that makes it easier, or at least I'm told as I haven't had to adjust mine as it was bang on). It's little things like these that set the SawStop saws apart.

I can't for the life of me believe anyone could argue that there's no discernible difference in quality between a $2000 saw and a $5000 saw. It's not even commercially realistic in this day and age where consumers have access to so many buying tools (YT videos, review sites, forums, etc). There's a well-known saying that you get what you paid for. It's a well known saying because it is generally true. Even a lay person who knew nothing about table saws would be able to tell that they're leagues apart.

Look, I'm not saying the Carbatec is a bad saw. I would even call it a good saw and a great value at it's current price. It's just the SS is an excellent saw. Is it a $3000 better saw? Well, that's up to everyone to decide for themselves depending on their needs and what values they place on certain aspects. Which saw suits you will depend on your needs and intended use. If you're mainly going to be cutting softwood or thin Aussie HW, then the Carbatec should meet your needs. But if you're going to be regularly cutting thick Aussie HW, I would recommend the get the most powerful saw your budget allows. Even then I normally take multiple passes except when I need the best finish on the cut edge. I advise that you check the saws out personally before making any decision. Don't just go on the specs on-line as they can be unreliable and will only tell you so much.

Anyhoo, that's all for now. If you need me to check out the Carbatec saw more thoroughly, just let me know as I'll be going back to Carbatec next week.



Cheers,
Mike

I assume the SS clamp runs on the metal strips becuase it's actually had a quick surface grind to ensure its actually flat so the fence clamps even and kept at 90 degrees.

The only downside is being bare metal it's prone to surface rust in moist conditions like my garage.

Originally Posted by havabeer69

I assume the SS clamp runs on the metal strips becuase it's actually had a quick surface grind to ensure its actually flat so the fence clamps even and kept at 90 degrees.

The only downside is being bare metal it's prone to surface rust in moist conditions like my garage.

Thanks for that, havabeer. I knew it was another example of SS showing extra care and attention to detail but I didn't know how. That certainly explains it.

Originally Posted by KahoyKutter

Mate, I apologise to you and all the Carbatec owners out there if I seemed overly critical. That was not my intent. I'm sure you will be happy with it. It's a step up from my 1st saw (the original Laguna Fusion) which had an aluminium front rail and only 2hp. And I reckon the Carbie is even better than the current and more expensive Laguna Fusion 2 ($2499) which has 1.75hp and aluminium rail. Someone wrote that the Carbie can do 90% of what the SS PCS can do at half the price, and I reckon that's probably spot on.

Not stressed at all mate. I expect it will be a quantum leap above my previous saw, but I'm also expecting it will need a certain amount of fettling before it's performing at its best. If I tamed an SB-12 I reckon I can handle the new one. I don't really have the space for a slider nor can I really justify the price of a SS, plus I need the saw to run on a 10a plug, which rules a cabinet SS out anyway. I didn't have any power issues cutting some pretty thick jarrah with 3hp and a 12" blade on the SB-12 so I'm counting on the 10" blade of the Carbatec to compensate for the half a horsepower I'm losing in the exchange. We will see when the item is installed whether it stacks up well enough for me, but I expect it will. All good, I promise not to sulk.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Jesus H Christ! The price of the cabinet Sawstops is absolutely outrageous!

Last I looked they were $3500 to $4000.

Now they are $6300 to $7300 !!!!!

Man, thats a BIG pill to swallow.

a Hammer K3 sliding panel saw is a few hundred more,
or a Felder K500 panel saw

I rather buy a panel saw than a table saw for slightly more money

Originally Posted by Albert

a Hammer K3 sliding panel saw is a few hundred more,
or a Felder K500 panel saw

I rather buy a panel saw than a table saw for slightly more money

You'd be lucky to see change for $9K for a new K3 now. I know - I've been tempted!