Thread: New table saw - SawStop vs others

Originally Posted by AndrewMP

Let me answer that with another question.... Do you think it could mean anything else?

well with an answer like that, clearly not.
(perhaps it could have meant something like "Mont-Pellier" or some other abbreviation of an actual surname). Now, it's time to fess up and see how many of us you represent !

Originally Posted by AndrewMP

Let me answer that with another question.... Do you think it could mean anything else?

I guess it could mean a lot of things. Military Police immediately comes to mind, but I wouldn't want to offend you by reporting some of the other things that popped into my head. Regardless it seems a pretty risky couple of letters to put in your user name.

My personal take on SawStop is that you're paying $2,000 over the odds for the privilege.

Buy a sliding table panel saw, anything else is just selling yourself short.

Originally Posted by poundy

well with an answer like that, clearly not.
(perhaps it could have meant something like "Mont-Pellier" or some other abbreviation of an actual surname). Now, it's time to fess up and see how many of us you represent !

Originally Posted by aldav

I guess it could mean a lot of things. Military Police immediately comes to mind, but I wouldn't want to offend you by reporting some of the other things that popped into my head. Regardless it seems a pretty risky couple of letters to put in your user name.

It's my initials... I've never even considered it being read as Member of Parliment/Military Police/etc., but being from the ACT..... I may now need to change my name just so that it doesn't happen again

Thanks for your thoughts on the tablesaws. I am going to have a look at the Hammer K3 and some other sliding tablesaw offerings, just to broaden my search field..... *sigh*

Originally Posted by barri

I agree with the last statement, more money gives versatility to the workshop, but can't agree with the first comment when a Sawstop blade lowers below the table within a couple of milliseconds to basically even prevent a drop of blood. No guard can do that. I used a very good guard with my first table saw, Laguna Fusion, and I had an accident that meant a trip to a medical center. I'm not saying that Sawstop will prevent all injuries but it sure does a good job of nearly all of them. There has been lots of discussion on Sawstop on this forum and I don't want to reopen those but Sawstop saws are clearly "much" safer than others.

Of the many ways to have an accident on a tablesaw, Sawstop MINIMISES only ONE of them, and eliminates NONE of them.

Neither a Sawstop nor a guard, Grripper or any of the other magic bullets of any type are a substitute for safe working habits and procedures.

Originally Posted by AndrewMP

It's my initials... I've never even considered it being read as Member of Parliment/Military Police/etc., but being from the ACT..... I may now need to change my name just so that it doesn't happen again

Thanks for your thoughts on the tablesaws. I am going to have a look at the Hammer K3 and some other sliding tablesaw offerings, just to broaden my search field..... *sigh*

Read the previous thread, that gives a good overview of the subject.

Interesting to re-think this again now I've been away from the Big Tools for a bit.

If I were to have my time re-done and thinking about the total amount of money I've spent on all kinds of things woodwork related (i.e a LOT!).... I'd say these thoughts are worth considering:

-- A basic table saw is a bloody good thing. I've a 12m10a and its not too shabby at all (Its in storage).
-- Cutting sleds, a zero-clearance insert and a fixed in-ZCI separator work brilliantly.
-- A track saw with a good blade does a fantastic job of breaking down sheets.
-- If I could go back in time (9 years?) I would solidly advise myself to buy a SawStop.

In the grand scheme of things the cost is small for two reasons:

-- Injuries ALWAYS happen in the workshop.
-- A table saw injury is NEVER trivial. Its blood and sinew and baggies of fingers in milk to the emergency dept.

The cost of a popped brake is a lot, but a lost finger and 6 months rehab is a bit more than $80.....

PLUS, if you drop the sport, the SawStop can be sold easily and for a decent price.

How about this for a thought...

You are buying a new car.

You KNOW the price of which will halve in 2 years, regardless of the brand you choose, but you intend to drive it for 10 or 15 years.

You can save 3 grand NOW if you don't choose ABS and airbags....

..
..

Long time to be driving a car without two major safety features? Better hope you don't have a big prang

Several days a week I help out at a Men's Shed where we have a Sawstop. Given the space I would not hesitate in buying a Sawstop for home. We've now had two events in four years at our Shed where the sawstop has prevented loss of fingers. Yes of course there needs to be good work practices, training and all care taken, but mistakes happen.

Brian

Originally Posted by woodPixel

How about this for a thought...

You are buying a new car.

You KNOW the price of which will halve in 2 years, regardless of the brand you choose, but you intend to drive it for 10 or 15 years.

You can save 3 grand NOW if you don't choose ABS and airbags....

..
..

Long time to be driving a car without two major safety features? Better hope you don't have a big prang

Nothing at all to do with Sawstop, but I drove my car with ABS and ESC disabled for 5 years because I didn't feel like replacing a faulty $60 sensor. Although it was less about the money and more because I enjoyed not having the stability control (you can't switch it off in my car

Sorry, back to the topic at hand. Too many Friday night wines.

Cheers, Dom

A Men's Shed is a totally different proposition to a home workshop. Men's Sheds have lots of members of greatly varying abilities. Let's face it some people should never be allowed anywhere near a dangerous piece of machinery, immediately they get out of bed they're an injury looking for a place to happen. Men's Sheds have to allow for the lowest common denominator and that's generally pretty low. If my local Men's Shed is typical I don't want anything to do with them.

My impression is that the way some of the SawStop owners here see it if you can't afford a SawStop you should stick to hand tools! Although those chisels can be pretty dangerous too, wonder when somebody is going to build in some idiot proof system for them? In the end it's an individual choice where money and a persons perception of their ability will often be a very big part of the decision.

Originally Posted by doug3030

Of the many ways to have an accident on a tablesaw, Sawstop MINIMISES only ONE of them, and eliminates NONE of them.

Neither a Sawstop nor a guard, Grripper or any of the other magic bullets of any type are a substitute for safe working habits and procedures.

I agree 100% with Doug's statements. This is not revisiting the Saw Stop pro's & cons, just commentary on our perceptions of safety.

We must be always mindful that all tasks we undertake with wood working machinery (even hand tools) carry some risk from the hazards inherent with the very nature of the "machining processes" and design of the machinery we use. What is vitally important is how we manage those hazards preferably through choosing well engineered machinery that "engineer's out" the hazards, or removes the operator from the hazard, and as Doug mentions by personally following safe working habits and procedures.

Yes, the added "engineering control" of the brake cartridge on the Saw Stop is a great additional safety feature esp in community workshops & Mens Shed's and the like.

However having a high reliance on a "back up" safety feature such as the brake cartridge to minimize the harm is pure folly imho. Even the most reliable, highly engineered and refined "systems" will fail if not maintained.


Would I choose to save $3k, or go for a more refined table saw, or really step up into the Euro class saws? A. - depends!

Would I spend say $1k on a workshop to learn how to use a table saw effectively & safely? A. - certainly if I did not have a background in using wood working machinery and being trained by some one who I respected & trusted!

There is no doubt that the support, build quality, setup up, refinement, alignment is better on the higher end (price point) machines, and so is the quality of the engineering and design to minimize or more desirably to eliminate most hazards. Saw Stop offer some very attractive mid price point machines. Like all things you get what you pay for.

Having very carefully considered the pros / cons of many machines over a number of years now, I have come to the conclusion that the "ideal cabinet saw" or the purchase of any wood working machine for that matter, for the hobbyist wood worker is a very personal decision.

We each have our "unique" requirements / limitations budget, space, current projects, future aspirations / goals, operator knowledge / skill / health & physical condition/s, desired features, enhanced safety features (if any), all rank highly in the decision making process.

I have decided to stay with my Woodfast (now Rikon / Record) TS250 psuedo sliding table saw for the time being. I know its underpowered, it has its vices, was a PIA to refine and adjust alignment etc. However it ticks most of the boxes, and is more suitable to my requirements than any other saw within my "wants" and budget, and I have the patience, and ability to refine it, well at least some of it.

I have tamed most of those vices and can produce very small components on it for my projects with a very high degree of confidence in both precision / accuracy and safety! Is it perfect, no, but I can't find a more suitable machine in the current market. Perfection is hard to come by.

Originally Posted by aldav

A Men's Shed is a totally different proposition to a home workshop. Men's Sheds have lots of members of greatly varying abilities. Let's face it some people should never be allowed anywhere near a dangerous piece of machinery, immediately they get out of bed they're an injury looking for a place to happen. Men's Sheds have to allow for the lowest common denominator and that's generally pretty low. If my local Men's Shed is typical I don't want anything to do with them.

My impression is that the way some of the SawStop owners here see it if you can't afford a SawStop you should stick to hand tools! Although those chisels can be pretty dangerous too, wonder when somebody is going to build in some idiot proof system for them? In the end it's an individual choice where money and a persons perception of their ability will often be a very big part of the decision.

Exactly, which is why my old man never went to one, there’s too many risks walking around.

All really great commentary, good to read, lots of information!

However, can I re-focus the thread on my original question:

"other than the "saw stop" aspect of the SawStop, what are you getting for the +150% price tag?"

Is the build quality, adjustability, durability of the saw that far superior?

I fully get that 3k is a good price to pay for peace of mind with fingers, and I also fully understand that it's not a silver bullet, it can fail, there are *numerous* other inherant dangers using table saws/power tools/woodworking tools, etc etc, but my main question is about "what are you getting for your money between two saws, not including the SawStop brake cartridge".

Thanks