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  1. #1
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    Default Xpert 8inch Deluxe Saw - anyone ever used?

    I might be able to pickup a table saw very cheap, that looks like it's old, but very sturdy ( proper t-bar fence etc ). I can't get a model number from the seller, but it says: "Xpert 8inch Deluxe Saw" on the pic.

    Only problem ( maybe ) is that it is an 8inch saw blade.

    It looks like a contractors saw, cast iron top.

    $_20.JPG

    Is the 8inch blade going to be an issue? I see that most people go for 10inch, and I've heard some on this forum steer people away from 12inch because of difficulty getting blades.........is 8inch going to be the same problem?

    Seb

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  3. #2
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    Default

    OK, so I bit the bullet & bought it...........$60 - I figure, if it's a dud, it won't matter too much.

    I'll need to find a Mitre Fence somewhere, but other than that it's in full working order, and Belt driven ( which is good isn't it? ).

    Still can't find anything on it online, but I'll try & post some more photos of it when I get it home

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Default

    Looking at the pic attached, it would appear to take a standard sized mitre slot bar (3/4 x 3/8 inch or 19 x 9.5mm) so you should not have a lot of issues getting mitre guage to suit. That said new cheapy will cost about what the saw did, and quality one much more. However the quality ones are adjustable in width for neat fit in the slot and are better value long term and can be kept if/when you upgrade the saw in the future.

    The only issue with 8 inch is that it will have at least 1in less depth of cut capacity than a 10 inch would, and possibly a bit more. Blade wise, I am not aware of a lot of 8in blades being around, although it was a common size in small table and radial arm saws 30 or more years ago. However 7.25in is common size for circ saws and you should be able to get rip and crosscut blades in that size fairly easily, but you won't get your fancy specialty blades etc. As an 8in saw I am guessing that it has a 5/8in (16mm) arbour, and most of the 7.25 circ saw blades use 20 to 25mm drive bosses. However it is not hard to find inserts to adapt blades to smaller arbours, or worst case, get a saw doctor to open out the hole to suit a larger arbour. One issue with going to 7.25 blades is that you loose another 10mm of cutting depth.
    I used to be an engineer, I'm not an engineer any more, but on the really good days I can remember when I was.

  5. #4
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    Oct 2013
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    Altona North, Melbourne VIC
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    Default

    Thanks for the input malb, it's greatly appreciated. Agree with you about the Mitre Fences......I'm checking out the Incra fences - they are awesome! I think this won't be my 'forever' saw - but I'm glad I've got something that I can start out with, and it's cost me next to nothing!

    A teacher of mine once said there's no such thing as a stupid question - so I'll ask one:

    Could I use a 10 inch blade on this saw ( obviously i might need to do something to the Arbour or the blade etc ) - would the only issue be that the motor might not be strong enough to drive a bigger blade? or are there other issues? Would this run at to high an RPM for a bigger blade?

    I know some people use 10 inch blades in 12 inch saws, but couldn't find anything about using bigger blades in smaller saws. I guess also one would need to make sure there was enough room for the blade to come up through the table as well

  6. #5
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    The issue with running an oversize blade is having enough clearance in the mechanics. For example the arm that the arbour is set into pivots from the other end to control rise and fall and depth of cut, a significantly larger blade will probably clash with the pivot mechanism somewhere. Similarly with the opening in the table, insert, and webs under the table, a bigger blade will most likely clash with the table system somewhere.

    The biggest issue is that even if you can avoid clashes in those areas, the blade would probably not drop below the table, so becomes a safety hazard and limits the vesatility of the saw for cutting rebates etc where you do not want to make a full depth through cut.

    If you can fit a 9.25 or 10 in blade and avoid all of these issues, the saw is probably a 10 in saw with an 8 inch blade rather than an 8 in saw.

    Speed wise, assuming the saw is an 8 in unit and speed is set to be correct for 8 in blade, a 10 inch blade would have a tip speed 25% higher than an 8 inch blade would. Typical speed for a modern 10in saw is around 4000RPM and the blades are normally stamped/labeled for a max speed around 7000+, so the extra tip speed should still be within the blades safety margin. My 10 inch 1960's saw has machined flange and drive washers about 2in diameter and the 9.25 and 10in blades are quite stable. However with an 8 inch saw the flange and washer might be somewhat smaller to suit the smaller blade, and a 10in blade might therefore be less stable in operation. If that was the only issue, you might be able to use blade stabilisers (big washers) to help control the blade, but I suspect you will have clearance issues before stability issues.
    I used to be an engineer, I'm not an engineer any more, but on the really good days I can remember when I was.

  7. #6
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    Ok, so I got the saw home and have to admit.......it's a total piece of crap!!

    the he main issue is that either the blade is bent, or worse.....the pully/pin where the motor belt connects to the blade is bent.

    when you switch it on, it vibrates so much it literally walks across the garage floor.

    If you can manage to get some stock through it, you end up with a cut that is about 3 or 4 times the width of the blade.....I imagine because the blade is oscillating so much, that it's practically behaving as a dado blade!

    if I manually turn the blade, I notice it kind of rises and falls as it turns, so something is definitely out of whack.

    ive put a straight edge against the blade, and it seems flat, so it must be something else.

    the big question is now......is it worth trying to fix, or do I dump it and move on. The motor is a 1/2 hp motor, so I may be able to just salvage that and use it for something else!

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
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    Ormeau, Gold Coast, Australia
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    Sebastian, my suggestion would be to try and fix it up providing you dont need to spend to much dough. You may then have a saw for cutting rough stock but more importantly you will learn a lot about table saws and how they work, thus your next purchase will be less likely to be a dud.
    Regards Rumnut.

    SimplyWoodwork
    Qld. Australia.

  9. #8
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    Default

    Just removed the blade, and it seems flat. Although, it had been put on off centre! Which explains the rise and fall issue! The blade has a 25mm arbor opening, and the arbor nut is smaller than that, so the blade was essentially free to slip around a bit.

    i also removed the belt from the motor and arbor pulley and started it up. The vibration was negligible (i.e. With just the motor spinning) so it's either coming from the belt, or....I suspect the arbor/pully assembly.

    when I hand turn the arbor pulley, there is a distinct grinding/sticking point, which I think is where all the issues are coming from. So I guess I'll see if there is any way of replacing that.

  10. #9
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    It sounds like it has had the wrong blade on it. If the hole in the blade is larger than the arbour then it should not be put on the saw without the appropriate size spacer and it is dangerous to do otherwise. If I was you I would be trying it with the right size blade on it (it may have even had a 10" blade on it originally) and then seeing where any vibration is coming from.
    Regards Rumnut.

    SimplyWoodwork
    Qld. Australia.

  11. #10
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    Success.

    a new belt ( the old one was worn, and had a few lumps and bumps in it ), and a correctly sized bushing to convert the blade hole from 25mm to 16mm and it now runs a damn sight smoother.

    there is still slight vibration, but it's about the same as it was with just the motor running without the belt.

    i did a test cut, and the cut is now the same size as the kerf of the blade, so I'm assuming all is now as it should be.

    now I just need to make sure the blade is square to the table top, and fence and all should be well

  12. #11
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    Regards Rumnut.

    SimplyWoodwork
    Qld. Australia.

  13. #12
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    Oct 2007
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    Default

    V Belts that have been kept stationary under tension for some time develop a permanent set or memory where they wrap around the pulleys, which would cause a lot of the initial vibration. The blade setup with a 25mm openning birectly mounted on a 16mm arbour would also contribute significantly as the blade to be ecentric by up to 9mm and would contribute to imbalance and vibration.

    However you mentioned feeling roughness turning the arbour by hand, was this with the drive belt in place or not? With the belt in place, the roughness might be due to the set in the belt, but I would expect it to kick in once every four or more turns of the arbour (length of permanent curves in belt vs length natural sections). If the belt was removed at the time, or the resistaance was felt more frequently it is probably an issue with the arbour bearings or bushings and I would be concerned about running the saw until the source was located and repaired.

    Is the blade sandwiched between two flanges on the arbour, or have one or both gone missing in action? The one on the pulley side of the blade may be machined as part of the arbour and fixed, or it might be a seperate part. The one on the nut side is of course a separate item so it can be removed for blade changing. I can't see the blade being able to wobble a couple of kerf widths with both flanges in place and the blade firmly gripped.
    I used to be an engineer, I'm not an engineer any more, but on the really good days I can remember when I was.

  14. #13
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    Default

    The 'roughness' was just turning the Arbor pulley by hand. However I *think* i may have found the cause of this.The Pulley set screw was a bit loose, so the pulley was able to turn around the arbor shaft. Since I've tightened the set screw, it seems to be OK. Although it does seem to come loose pretty easy, and it seems silly that one tiny screw pressing into a flat part of the arbor shaft is all that stops it from free wheeling around the shaft - i.e. it's not keyed on both items.

    I'm noticing that when I turn the pulley by hand & it has the weight of the belt + motor on it, i get a knocking sound at a specific part of the turn - on each turn. When i take the belt of, and turn the arbor pulley by hand, there is no knocking - i'm thinking the bearings??

    I've got some photos of the Arbor flanges. The top one is the one that goes up against the blade after you put it on, and then the tightening nut sits on that. - it has a ridge on it, and therefore when I tighten it against the blade, it only contacts the bushing of the blade, so I need to use a washer to ensure contact with the blade - i still think this is probably not a good way to do it - open to ideas.

    The bottom one is the arbor side flange that sits up against the arbor nut, it's got a fair groove in it from a washer or something, so again, i don't think it's 'in spec'.

    Have taken some other photos of the arbor pulley + the arbor nut as well.

    appreciate the comments & advice

    p.s. i'm going to go buy a new blade today and hopefully that will help as well.

    arbor flanges.jpg

    other photos of the Arbor itself - pulley side & blade side:

    photo 2.jpgphoto 1.jpg



    tdrumnut - you are right - I AM learning a truckload about these saws! It's fun, but I do just want to get this baby working super smoothly now and get woodworking!

    Seb

  15. #14
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    Two things from your last post

    1. I agree that the rough spot you are finding when rotating the harbour by hand will be bearing related, or alternatively created by something else clashing, like a dag on the pulley casting touching the bearing housing etc.
    If bearings are the cause, they will deteriorate rapidly if you continue to use the saw without solving the problem.

    2. If the drive flanges are not big enough to grip the faces of the blade well clear (10mm or more) of the bore in the blade, then the combination of blade and flanges is not suitable and should not be used as the blade mounting will not be stable. If the flanges are small, then it is imperative that you only use blades with an opening that matches the arbour rather than ones with a larger opening and an insert to reduce the opening. I suspect that the diecast outer flange is non original, it's not a material I would choose for the job. Overall you might be better to try and get a set of flanges machined for you, or buy a set of stabilisers to replace them. What are the overall diameters of the flanges?
    I used to be an engineer, I'm not an engineer any more, but on the really good days I can remember when I was.

  16. #15
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    Default

    The Flanges are ~40mm ( give or take a mm as I measured it just now whilst they are on the saw ).

    Another complication has now arisen..........I have an opportunity to buy a Carbatec CTJ650 10" Contractor saw for a good price , and am wondering if I should cut my losses on this little 8 inch saw.

    the CTJ-650 has a cast iron table - this one actually is pressed steel. the CTJ-650 is 1 & 1/2 HP vs the small 1/2 HP of this saw, and the CTJ650 is a true 10 inch saw, whereas this one isn't.
    The CTJ-650 is also less likely to have the issues I'm having with this one ( but now i'll be sure to check! )

    dillemas!

    I think if I keep this saw I'll have to replace the flanges & it probably wouldn't hurt to replace the Arbor bearing either. After that, I think this little saw would likely be about as good as it's ever going to get.

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