Thread: Which Chisel Mortiser - small or big?

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

However, the large machine will give me big space problems until I build a shed extension, and the small one can be put on a shelf out of the way.

Didn't you just finish a new shed?

Originally Posted by DomAU

Hi Rob,

Any experience (even if it's just a look) with the Jet 719AS floor-standing mortiser as compared to the Hare and Forbes M-25? I'm driving down to Hare and Forbes / Carbatec this Saturday, and will likely drive home with one of them. The Jet looks a little better finished and has a longer vertical stroke (8" vs 5") as well as the tilting table (not sure if this is really useful) but is a few hundred dollars more expensive (used to be cheaper than the M-25 until earlier this year though). The Jet is also lighter at 126kg vs 160kg for the M-25 which I assume would mean it is not as stiff / robust, but possibly it has a better design so this is not a given.

What do you think? Do you ever find the 5" stroke limiting? Also, do you find you have to move the clamp on the M-25 often due to the shorter clamping thread? Would you, or did you, consider the Powermatic / Jet machine vs the M-25?

Cheers,

Dom

Hi Dom .
Id go bigger and heavier . I don't think the tilt is any good . You need to be able to tilt in two directions for traditional chair and sofa making. I think keeping a table just doing the basic left and right and in and out is fine and change of angles is done by cutting angled blocks off the plan and placing them behind or under the leg or work to be mortised. If my machine is exactly the same and also has a 5" stroke it's good . I've never needed longer . I have sometimes come in from two sides on large trestle tables . Coming in from both sides is clean rather than going through . My machine was a Carbatec machine when they sold them around twenty years back . The first machine above a hand held tool that I bought . They have a cast iron counter balance in them which hangs over a pulley with a cable . It's basic and works great . I've had to replace the cable twice in twenty years . No I don't move the clamp much , I think it's set on the middle and I just pack with timber. If I did have a large trestle table base and that was my only machine then that clamp would be coming off more like it used to when it was my only machine . I've just added machines though . The second one I got meant one was set for 3/8 chisels and the other at 1/2 chisels . Changing and setting up chisels was the most time consuming thing in a busy workshop doing all sorts of different things .
Rob

I just got back from a trip and looked at my small Mortiser , the M25 type . The 5 inch stroke had me thinking " it goes further than 5 inches "
The whole head slides and is fixed with one nut . You can set it at a high or low position , or any where in between. The length of the stroke is not the limiting factor but the length of the chisel. One of my larger Carbatec chisels has a useable length of 95mm. It looks like if the head was raised you would get a 3/8 chisel over a piece of wood roughly 10 inches thick . Rob

Originally Posted by rob streeper

Didn't you just finish a new shed?

That was the wood storage shed right down the back. It's just a maze of shelving with a couple of square metres in the middle to stand in.

Originally Posted by DomAU

Any experience (even if it's just a look) with the Jet 719AS floor-standing mortiser as compared to the Hare and Forbes M-25?

I thought the Jet was no longer available in Australia?

Rob (auscab), how do you go with the chisels heating up? Does it cause much delay waiting for them to cool down?

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

I thought the Jet was no longer available in Australia?

No it's still available, and has always been available as far as i knew.

My mistake, it's must be the small one that is no longer available. Carbatec have the Jet 719AS for $1679 reduced from $2099 at the moment. Or there's a used one in Canberra/Melbourne for $1400
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Jet-tilt...-/162774822595

He's quoting new price of $2099, so maybe he'll take an offer of <$1400?

EDIT: oopsie, it's finished

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

My mistake, it's must be the small one that is no longer available. Carbatec have the Jet 719AS for $1679 reduced from $2099 at the moment. Or there's a used one in Canberra/Melbourne for $1400
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Jet-tilt...-/162774822595

He's quoting new price of $2099, so maybe he'll take an offer of <$1400?

EDIT: oopsie, it's finished

Yeah just saw that it's on sale. Almost seems like a sign; or at least a good way to justify the expense. Just made my decision a lot harder! I'll take a look this weekend and decide on the day.

Although that still only brings the price back a little under what it used to be less than 12 months ago.

Already have a set of Lee Valley Premium Japanese bits on the way so will definitely be buying one of the two!

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Rob (auscab), how do you go with the chisels heating up? Does it cause much delay waiting for them to cool down?

If they are heating its because of Gum build up . If you keep running them like that It wont be to long before your Drill loses its cutting end . They snap off.
Once they heat up they then obviously loose the temper . You can just heat treat them again with a gas torch and a quench for hardening,then polish with sand paper and temper them waiting for a bronze or straw colour and they harden up well . Same for the drill and chisel.
Best not to let them Gum up though.
If they get Gummy I soak them in a tin of Caustic and warm water and that washes it all off perfectly . I usually give them a drop of oil as they some times squeak while running and that adds to heating as well .

Here is some pictures.
First is a small selection of spare chisels who have lost there drill bits through breaking .

Second is the broken drills . Worth Keeping for the steel or for the day I figure out how to add an end . probably to hard though .

Third is the weight hanging in the base . Its quite heavy .

Fourth is the broken depth stop casting . If you buy one treat that part with care . Im pretty sure I have seen the same break on others . Its a pain with out the depth stop working properly . You then have to go marking chisels with a texta . Ill repair it one day maybe .

Fifth. See the Bed and where the clamp is screwed in . Its on its second set of holes. look a little bit back to where the third holes are . Though they aren't visible, on the edge of the bed its built up with weld . That's because the clamp was over tightened once while fitted to the outside third holes and the fellow doing the tightening broke the bed off at the third holes.
I welded it up and laid on extra weld and its been going well ever since. The reason it was being over tightened though is a common problem with some chisels and can be solved. When you plunge a chisel in with all that leverage and you go to take it out , the chisel can jam in the wood and lift it out of the clamp , no matter how hard you clamp it !!
I use to solve this by folding sand paper and slipping that in between the clamp and the wood , and that helped it stop sliding up . Its not always a problem on just the first plunge but can drive you nuts happening all the time on some woods.
The solution is in picture six.

Six. I forget who told me this , its a good tip . See how the chisel in picture six is ground back behind the cutting edge , the rougher surface . You do that to four sides , staying 5 to 10 mm back from the cutting edge. I normally do it on the linisher and it looks less rough but I remember doing that one on a grind stone . If you slightly grind off some material the chisel stops grabbing and lifting the wood up when withdrawing the chisel from hard woods. Makes no difference to accuracy , and things run smoothly .

picture seven is my baby on wheels. I have to watch it doesn't get pushed around to fast because they are top heavy and they go over if you hit a small chip of wood .

I keep a 3/8 chisel in it and will be doing four Oak doors for a cabinet tomorrow with it . I just got in from machining Rails and stiles for the solid Oak panels. With this mortiser I will have 20 mortises to do and this will get through them real fast . Ive got other machines with 3/8 chain as well , to fast and messy for this type of fine work though . I think the best thing about these mortisers , no matter what the size or price , is they do a traditional mortise . Its not rounded at the top and bottom like a domino or a routed mortise, and that fits in well with doing good fast work with doors and cabinets when doing panel and frame construction . Where the slot for the panel is in the same line with the mortise. Where the mortise ends is where the panel starts within the frame . This all makes great sense when your building a piece like this . Its straight forward and less complicated .

This same mortiser has done lots of standard tables in farmhouse style or trestle but has also been very good at doing round tables or extensions where three or four legs go into a round column . Traditionally this type of table was dovetails that slide up into the column from the bottom . But with the mortiser it allows a stronger tenon to go in and its faster and accurate I reckon . I make a simple jig to hold the column so it can be rotated and indexed all size round or extension styles can and have been done on this mortiser .

I just would never go smaller than this one . No way

Rob

Also, thanks a heap Rob for the first hand experience and advice. I was all decided on the M-25 and then the Jet went on sale almost as a sign. Or a sick joke to make my decision harder. Are you reading my posts Mr Carbatec? Show yourself! Haha.

Originally Posted by DomAU

Also, thanks a heap Rob for the first hand experience and advice. I was all decided on the M-25 and then the Jet went on sale almost as a sign. Or a sick joke to make my decision harder. Are you reading my posts Mr Carbatec? Show yourself! Haha.

No probs Dom . I like the subject of these machines . They are a favorite of mine and the first one I got was a bit of a big step for me back then . How I then went about cutting tenons is another long story Lol . And when ever I know of someone buying one of these it gets me thinking of how I then had to solve that problem . And I wonder what you will be doing ?
If only I knew then what I now know I would have saved a lot of work and made a lot more profit .
Kicking myself about that one

I'm just editing some more pictures of some work we did on these machines to put up .
Rob

This is some of the larger things we did on these machines before I got bigger ones again .
That green machine (Picture one )is a Woodman . I haven't seen many of these, one other I think . I got it second hand for $500 and its a better built machine than my first. Same sort of capacity though . Its doing a round column like I was saying before . Not in the jig though . Four legs is easier because there are four flats spots to jig itself with and its not needed.
Picture Five and six are a large trestle base . You can see in pic six how we came in from both sides to get that through mortise.

Rob

Originally Posted by auscab

No probs Dom . I like the subject of these machines . They are a favorite of mine and the first one I got was a bit of a big step for me back then . How I then went about cutting tenons is another long story Lol . And when ever I know of someone buying one of these it gets me thinking of how I then had to solve that problem . And I wonder what you will be doing ?
If only I knew then what I now know I would have saved a lot of work and made a lot more profit .
Kicking myself about that one

I'm just editing some more pictures of some work we did on these machines to put up .
Rob

Usually, I cut my tenons using the band-saw to cut the cheeks, and a hand-saw to cut the shoulders. I then use a shoulder plane to trim the shoulders and a combination of shoulder plane and/or router plane to trim the tenon cheeks (I now have a rabbet block & bench rabbet plane so will use these to trim tenon cheeks in future).


Cheers,

Dom