Thread: Custom Built Oscillating Spindle Sander -- A Features Wish List

Originally Posted by LuckyDuck

Bob, from your comments on extraction it appears you are thinking of a primary port under the table. And possibly a secondary one over the top? I think I understand the problem about getting enough airflow around the spindles. Rather, I was thinking about ONLY having a shroud and port above table, thereby maximise the available 160mm flex, hopefully with a bell mouth, and immediately behind/over the spindle. I'm still unsure how to fix it or make it adjustable (one of those "lamp" arms?), and I also envisaged it doing double duty and moving it to a secondary position to catch dust at the end of the platen.

The number one thing about dust collection is to get some suction as close to the source as possible.

Since the wood normally lays on the table the closest point is from under the table i.e. within a few cm of the source.
Collection from above has to avoid getting in the way of the workpiece, operator, and operator visibility e.g. seeing to be able to sand to a line, and the spindle.
This means any sort of above the table port will have to be 10's of cm away.
10 times further way will mean the dust has a greater chance of escaping collection.
OTOH the flow can be much greater than an under the table port so there are swings and round abouts involved with both.
That's why I would shoot for both.
If you really wanted to collect all the fine dust then the most certain way would be to run the unit in some sort of booth.

BTW VFDs are not really designed to be moved around. There is also a question about where it would be located to minimise dust passing through the VFD as they usually have a fan.
On a moveable machine I would look at having the VFD on a wall or in a cupboard and having the power and control lines running from there to the machine

Is this the machine you are trying to replicate?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx6HvGaV77o
If so, wouldn't it be cheaper to import one and swap out the motor for a 240V?

Originally Posted by hiroller

Is this the machine you are trying to replicate?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx6HvGaV77o
If so, wouldn't it be cheaper to import one and swap out the motor for a 240V?

Swapping out of internal motors is rarely that, lots of things have to line up for this to happen so I would makes sure it can be done before you nuy.

Originally Posted by BobL

Swapping out of internal motors is rarely that, lots of things have to line up for this to happen so I would makes sure it can be done before you nuy.

How about a transformer?
Something like this mother.
H.

Originally Posted by BobL

Swapping out of internal motors is rarely that, lots of things have to line up for this to happen so I would makes sure it can be done before you nuy.

Fair point. However they are made in Asia so you would think that the factory would be able to offer it.

For the cost of custom building a belt sander you could probably get one of these off the shelf.
Locally made and has a variable speed option. Would need to add dust collection.
http://www.radiusmaster.com.au/belt-...-belt-grinder/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=OtuCsEyWVh8

Originally Posted by hiroller

Fair point. However they are made in Asia so you would think that the factory would be able to offer it.

Maybe if a few hundred units were purchased but I seriously doubt the factory would do it for just one.

For the cost of custom building a belt sander you could probably get one of these off the shelf.
Locally made and has a variable speed option. Would need to add dust collection.
http://www.radiusmaster.com.au/belt-...-belt-grinder/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=OtuCsEyWVh8

The radius master is really a metal linisher. It doesn't oscillate and doesn't have a true spindle so the insides of cut outs can't be sanded with them.
The other thing is the working tables on these are in general too small for wood working.
At 3K for the variable speed model it's a lot of money for something that is missing a couple of vital features.

The Rigid and a transformer is starting to look like the better option although it will no longer be in the <35kg mark.
Transformers are also a right a PITA. My brother bought a heap of 110V power tools and a couple of 240/110V transformers with him when he came back from the US. Within a year he had replaced them all with 240V.

It might be easier to retro fit an extra roller and platen onto a conventional spindle sander.
You might get some ideas from this.
The extra roller is from a WASP sander that normally attaches to a Drill press.
Adding a platen would not be that difficult

Originally Posted by BobL

The number one thing about dust collection is to get some suction as close to the source as possible.

Since the wood normally lays on the table the closest point is from under the table i.e. within a few cm of the source.
Collection from above has to avoid getting in the way of the workpiece, operator, and operator visibility e.g. seeing to be able to sand to a line, and the spindle.
This means any sort of above the table port will have to be 10's of cm away.
10 times further way will mean the dust has a greater chance of escaping collection.
OTOH the flow can be much greater than an under the table port so there are swings and round abouts involved with both.
That's why I would shoot for both.

Points taken. Thank you.

Originally Posted by BobL

If you really wanted to collect all the fine dust then the most certain way would be to run the unit in some sort of booth.

Agreed!

Originally Posted by BobL

BTW VFDs are not really designed to be moved around. There is also a question about where it would be located to minimise dust passing through the VFD as they usually have a fan.
On a moveable machine I would look at having the VFD on a wall or in a cupboard and having the power and control lines running from there to the machine

This is new information for me and therefore seemingly more important. I was not aware that VFDs are not designed to be moved around. I don't know what is inside them? Is vibration a problem, or the dust, or harsh bumps? I am generally very careful with my machinery but if VFDs cannot generally tolerate movement, then I may have a conceptual problem with the proposed design.

Yes, the VFD proposed for use has a fan (same one as for my Parken Drill Press). I had thought that if I allowed for really good dust extraction, then the dust around the VFD would not be an issue. Wishful thinking?

Essentially, I'm trying to recreate the Rigid machine but with very significant upgrades. Whether these upgrades are worth the cost of a custom built machine is another thing.

In my opinion, the Rigid machine is underpowered, the spindles are not long enough, and the platen is tiny. It also does not have a VFD nor anything like the kind of dust extraction I want. The only things going for it in my opinion are its price (i.e. inexpensive), flexibility (combined spindle and platen sander) and portability. I love machines made in Australia (and usually Germany and sometimes in the USA) because they are (most often) very superior to what we get from China and usually superior to what we get from Taiwan.

Thus, coupled with the fact that I am very impressed with Parken Engineering, who have made sanding machines (albeit steel linishers) before, I am hopeful of proceeding from my wish list and the input gained here, to the design and construction of an entirely new machine. Obviously it won't be cheap, but I appreciate everyone's input in the machine's design. I'll be sure to share where the project goes.

Originally Posted by BobL

It might be easier to retro fit an extra roller and platen onto a conventional spindle sander.
You might get some ideas from this.
The extra roller is from a WASP sander that normally attaches to a Drill press.
Adding a platen would not be that difficult

Thanks for the pic BobL. Something like that could work but is not quite what I'm after. I need both the spindle sander and the platen or edge sander and I may have to settle for separate machines to achieve this. Oscillation is a feature I don't want to go without. And the dust extraction is very important. I think this last point is important when considering the Rigid as an alternative. Even if I could swallow the challenges associated with different power requirements, foregoing the VFD or adding it separately, increasing motor size, putting up with the plastic and tiny platen, etc., the dust extraction on these machines is pretty bad. I've watched a few YouTube videos of guys using the Rigid, with extraction attached, and there is dust everywhere. One person even referred to the dust in the air (I think you could see it in the vid!) and said while the extraction could be better, it was "not too bad"!

Originally Posted by LuckyDuck

This is new information for me and therefore seemingly more important. I was not aware that VFDs are not designed to be moved around. I don't know what is inside them? Is vibration a problem, or the dust, or harsh bumps? I am generally very careful with my machinery but if VFDs cannot generally tolerate movement, then I may have a conceptual problem with the proposed design.

Yes, the VFD proposed for use has a fan (same one as for my Parken Drill Press). I had thought that if I allowed for really good dust extraction, then the dust around the VFD would not be an issue. Wishful thinking?

Yep that should be OK but bear in mind that a DP makes MUCH less dust than any sort of sander.
My dust particle testing testing of drilling with a drill press has shown that if bits are sharp and used at their optimum speed, and real wood (not MDF) is being drilled then only very small amounts of fine dust are generated such that it makes a DP the lowest dust making machine in most sheds. Unless I am drilling multiple holes I don't usually use my DC for this sort of thing.

VFDs are typically designed to be located inside a strong cabinet that is located on a wall or a stand near the machine it serves. If that machine is large enough it may even be inside a cabinet attached to that machine or been inside the machine. The reason for this is to keep dust and vibration down because after all they are boxes of electronics that are not intended to be exposed for any length of time to this environment.

Despite all this I have attached the VFDs directly to a Drill press and also to an extractor fan because they are relatively dust free and low vibration.
Except for the VFD on my MW lathe the other VFDs I use cost around the $140 mark so if I lose one occasionally to these problems so be it. OTOH if the VFDs were in the double or triple price range (like the one on my MW lathe) then I would be looking at some sort of cabinet style installation.

On my WW lathe, linisher and a grinder I have located their VFD on metal stands that sit 300 - 600 mm above each machine. This helps get the VFD away from most of the mass of dust that escapes the DC - large chips fall down and only the fine stuff wafts up.

In this photo you should be able to see 2 of these, linisher in the foreground, and WW lathe in the background.


Now the downside of this method is vibration and placing the VFD on the end of a long stand does not help. However, one of the really useful things about VFDs are that if a machine is vibrating at one frequency it is often possible to just tweak the frequency up or down and this will reduce the vibe significantly.

On a spindle sander, a VFD on a stand above the table would get in the way so this suggests that the VFD should be inside the cabinet under the sander. This further points to going with a sander with an under cabinet all on wheels.

Originally Posted by LuckyDuck

Thanks for the pic BobL. Something like that could work but is not quite what I'm after. I need both the spindle sander and the platen or edge sander and I may have to settle for separate machines to achieve this. Oscillation is a feature I don't want to go without.

Fair enough.

And the dust extraction is very important. I think this last point is important when considering the Rigid as an alternative. Even if I could swallow the challenges associated with different power requirements, foregoing the VFD or adding it separately, increasing motor size, putting up with the plastic and tiny platen, etc., the dust extraction on these machines is pretty bad. I've watched a few YouTube videos of guys using the Rigid, with extraction attached, and there is dust everywhere. One person even referred to the dust in the air (I think you could see it in the vid!) and said while the extraction could be better, it was "not too bad"!

Yep I saw that.

One thing I noticed is that machine comes with several different throat plates. When working on longish pieces, one very simple thing that would improve DC significantly is to use the throat plate for the next size up spindle or maybe even 2 sizes up.

Originally Posted by BobL

One thing I noticed is that machine comes with several different throat plates. When working on longish pieces, one very simple thing that would improve DC significantly is to use the throat plate for the next size up spindle or maybe even 2 sizes up.

Agreed. I will have that option up my sleeve. I'm still waiting on input from Michael at Parken Engineering, but regardless of what the throat plates are made from (steel, anodised alu, plastic, even wood), I want to have plenty of sizings to cater for better extraction.

On your previous post, thanks for the picture of your VFD on a post. I've admired your linisher in previous posts by you -- but gosh it looks big and beautiful!

Originally Posted by LuckyDuck

On your previous post, thanks for the picture of your VFD on a post. I've admired your linisher in previous posts by you -- but gosh it looks big and beautiful!

Thanks.

I'm not sure what sort of linisher/belt sander you already have, and the amount / size of spindle sanding you wish to undertake but if it is going to be for chair legs I would be looking at something like a full size oscillating belt sander with a dedicated adjustable end table at one of the belt that enables that roller to be used as a sort of spindle sander.

I really like the way the tables on those sanders can be flipped by 90º and this also has uses when spindle sanding. This sort of sander will be significantly better that the short belts that would be able to be mounted on a spindle sander.

I realise it's not going to be portable but if it replaces an existing belt sander then it may be worth looking at.

Originally Posted by BobL

Thanks.

I'm not sure what sort of linisher/belt sander you already have, and the amount / size of spindle sanding you wish to undertake but if it is going to be for chair legs I would be looking at something like a full size oscillating belt sander with a dedicated adjustable end table at one of the belt that enables that roller to be used as a sort of spindle sander.

I really like the way the tables on those sanders can be flipped by 90º and this also has uses when spindle sanding. This sort of sander will be significantly better that the short belts that would be able to be mounted on a spindle sander.

I realise it's not going to be portable but if it replaces an existing belt sander then it may be worth looking at.

My existing belt sander is my Makita hand-held belt sander, sometimes used sideways under my foot on the floor!

I'm very open to your idea of turning this sander into a larger oscillating belt/platen sander which has the flexibility to be an oscillating spindle sander too. Michael Heidegger suggested 20" platen which I guess would accommodate 1220mm long belts. It may well be entirely wishful thinking, but I am hoping that with care, Michael can build something of this size but keep the weight down. I was thinking of a table say 800mm long x 400mm wide, perhaps machined/anodised aluminium.

The concept is that the one end would have removable spindles, and a table all around it. Then it can be used as a bobbin sander, swapping out different spindles as required. Then, when the belt sanding part of the machine is required, a simple steel drum at the appropriate side is installed into the machine and a belt installed. There are plenty of issues here to be considered:

1. An edge linisher usually has a horizontal table at ninety degrees to a platen which supports the belt. In the Rigid version, the platen and belt is installed "in the middle" of the table by removing an insert which reveals a slot in the table. A "slot" big enough for a 1220mm belt and platen would be rather large, and probably impact on the table structure.

2. A platen of this size is usually fixed and rather heavy. I don't know whether it is feasible to make a removable platen that is strong enough and light enough for what I am proposing? Probably not. There is also the matter of the second drum at the other end of the belt. Would this be removable? Perhaps it could be permanent even when spindle sanding as it would be at the opposite end of the machine to the spindle sander and thus not in the way.

3. When you refer to an adjustable table at the end (of the spindle part), do you mean to suggest that the platen could stay in place, essentially "behind" the spindle when spindle sanding? Thus, when it is time for spindle sanding, I could remove the belt, remove the drum used for the belt, install whatever sized spindle I wanted and proceed from there? Some would say that the platen will get in the way, but as long as I have enough table at the end of the machine -- which is what I think you're suggesting? -- I could use the spindle off the end of the machine and the platen would be far enough away not to be much of a bother.

4. A VFD would allow me to reverse the spindle/belt which means I may not need to have dust extraction shrouds at both ends? I was initially thinking that I would need a shroud at the end of the belt for edge sanding -- I can't remember if it is your sander or John Samuel's or Pete's that has the big PVC shroud at the end of the belt? -- and another for the spindle sanding part (top and bottom).

So much to consider...thanks for your time as a conversational partner!