Thread: Who makes what and where and does it matter?

With the generic clone machines, I don't think it's so much "brand X is a rebranded Y" as "there's a couple of factories that make all the generic machines and brands X, Y and Z source from the same place". It could well be that one of the brands was the first one and everyone else copied it, but, at the end of the day, if they're all coming out of the same place with the same components, it doesn't really matter which one is the "real" one. If they look the same, they probably are.

As for China vs Taiwan, IMO Taiwan is consistently better on average. That's not to say that anything out of China is going to necessarily be bad, just that Taiwan is more consistently good.

They may appear similar but I can assure you that they are often quite different beasts.

Woodfast was / is a typical example with different spec levels on a bandsaw things like guides, bearings, wheels, switch & and door interlocks, braked wheel/s, even table and fence designs .......

It is very difficult to compare "apples with apples" and more so given very few of us can actually touch a machine before purchase. That is just one "brand" being offered by separate importers. At the time I purchased my BS500, Woodfast SA was supposedly the authorized distributor, however at least two other companies were parallel importing different versions. Then there are the clones Rikon / Record / Grizzly / ......

Thanks that makes sense. But also makes it hard to make a choice!

I really like the look of the Sherwood 12 inch hybrid table saw. However, there hardly any info out there on the actual performance of this model. On the other hand is the Laguna Fusion 1 2020 model, which comes in at the same price point as the Sherwood. However, on paper, the Sherwood looks way better. But in reality, everything I read says Laguna is just better quality. Is that actually true for these two saws? No idea (for example apparently the Laguna Fusion 1 previous model - not the 2020 - had a lot of issues).

Do I just take a chance with the Sherwood and get more saw for my money or play it safe with the Laguna?

Why would you need to contact Rikon if you bought the unit from Timbercon branded with their in-house Sherwood livery? Don’t Tombecon support the in-house branded equipment that they sell?

There are a LOT of differences between the Sherwood and Laguna saws you're comparing. If you forget blade size and motor power the major difference is that the Sherwood is a hybrid (the guts of the saw hangs off the table the same as a contractor saw) while the Laguna is a true cabinet saw (guts of the saw are mounted in the cabinet). Cabinet saws run smoother, are easier to adjust and are capable of superior results. It really doesn't pay to directly compare the two different types.

One thing that is common with cheaper gear is the manuals are all over the place. Photocopies of photocopies of photocopies, poor translations/mistakes/errors and stuff left in there from rebadging or even re-speccing of gear.

In modern production very little or none of the actual manufacturing comes out of the same physical location or even the assembler. Components tend to be made all over the place so the final product is most likely a patchwork of items from a variety of producer, including smaller producers, some as small as family operated entities. Depending on demand many of these small entities produce the same widget according to some spec. Sometimes there are multiple layers of manufacturing involved especially for more complex machines. This is why things might look very similar but are not necessarily the same. Just because something is made, even in say Taiwan, doesn't necessarily mean it all made there as neither the Chinese or Taiwanese normally let politics get in the way of commerce.

What the final quality of a machine usually comes down to is the quality of the quality control process along the way.

I'll Illustrate all this with my Italian cousin who makes, or should I say assembles, and quality assures electric motors. He makes a few custom parts in his small workshop but the vast majority of the parts come from all over the world including china, but he is permitted to put made in Italy stickers on the motors - he ensures the parts and motors meet the EU specifications for energy use, safety and recyclability etc. He pays insurance and takes the fall for replacing them, any legally stickable disasters they may cause, if and when they fail. He determines what final quality assurance processes, and what degree and frequency of tests and inspection required to minimise (not eliminates) his possible liabilities.

Originally Posted by aldav

There are a LOT of differences between the Sherwood and Laguna saws you're comparing. If you forget blade size and motor power the major difference is that the Sherwood is a hybrid (the guts of the saw hangs off the table the same as a contractor saw) while the Laguna is a true cabinet saw (guts of the saw are mounted in the cabinet). Cabinet saws run smoother, are easier to adjust and are capable of superior results. It really doesn't pay to directly compare the two different types.

That is incorrect. The Laguna F1 has the trunnions mounted to the table (it says so in the manual). The Sherwood has more power, bigger blade, cast iron wings, more solid cabinet by the looks of things. Both are table mounted trunnions. What are the “lot of differences” that I’m missing. Again, I’m brand new to table saws so I simply don’t know what I’m looking for when I’m comparing those two models. For example, one video I watched on the Laguna talked about how well made the trunnions were and that this would prevent the table from sagging over time given it is a table mounted trunnions.

I stand corrected.

With that being the case the Sherwood saw certainly seems to provide a much bigger bang for your buck. The assertion that the Laguna table is less likely to sag over time sounds like a bit of a furphy to me. There are a number of things that might explain the different value equation of the two saws including superior fit and finish and the Laguna leveraging off the reputation of the brand and regard for the higher quality saws in the range. It would be interesting to know the relative weight of each machine.

If I were looking for a saw in this price range at the moment I would be sorely tempted to spend another $500 and buy a true cabinet saw, something like the Carbatec C250P.

No worries

Agreed the Laguna is likely more expensive due to better quality and brand name.

I was into photography a while back and have been through the process of researching lenses. It’s possible to go seriously deep into the most minute details of this lens vs that lens, but having taken tens of thousands of photos across many lenses, I found that overall any decent lens will take a great photo - it’s much more about the person taking the photo. In that same vein, I wonder if table saws (or I guess any number of types of tools like band saws, etc) are similar in that as long as you get a decent one that meets your desired spec then the improvements become very marginal as you go up the range?

Having only got into 'proper' woodworking a couple of years ago I went through all of this fairly recently, and I found that while many machines can look good on paper one issue in particular turned out in practice to be non negotiable for me, and that is that any machine I could be happy with in the long term should have a quick release blade guard and a riving knife so I could remove the blade guard, fit the riving knife and make non through cuts such as when cutting tenons, dados etc.

I first bought a Hafco SB-12 which seemed a lot of saw for the price, but the lack of the aforementioned features became a real pain almost immediately, and after only three or four months I gave the SB-12 to the local men's shed and bought a Carbatec TS-C250P-30TG instead. The ability to remove the blade guard and install a riving knife in a few seconds, plus the fence that would lock up square reliably and accurately completely changed the way I worked.

Some people who have had this saw have said it took a fair bit of farting around to get it set up properly but mine went together like a dream and was properly aligned and ready to go right from the start. Maybe I just got a good one or maybe quality control has improved between the previous experiences from other posters and mine, I can't say, but I reckon it's the best bang for your buck table saw you can get at the moment. I'm very happy with mine and can see myself being so in the long term, it's accurate, reliable and doesn't have any annoying quirks that ruin the woodworking experience for me the way the SB-12 did.

The other brand to look at from reports from other posters on this forum is Harvey. I don't have any experience with them but owners of these models are pretty much universally pleased with their purchases.

Good luck with your search for machines that will satisfy your requirements.

Cheers, Richard.

If it meets the quality control then it doesnt really matter does it...

However on more prominent brand such as SCM, or Altendorf, they will tell you what line is made in China, I dont think you can buy Chinese SCM in AUS/NZ, its designated for India and Brazil market. For Altendorf its WA series saw.

For Hammer/Felder, a lot of it is outsourced so they can keep the prices down/lower than competitor, as long as its reaches certain % of made in Austria component/process then it is legally made in Austria (cant disclose too much info dont want my informant gets into trouble!) hence you get more bang for your buck.

Originally Posted by lemerv

I was into photography a while back and have been through the process of researching lenses. It’s possible to go seriously deep into the most minute details of this lens vs that lens, but having taken tens of thousands of photos across many lenses, I found that overall any decent lens will take a great photo - it’s much more about the person taking the photo.

True, but that doesn't fit into marketing's lexicon - only the latest greatest lens / tool / machine will solve all your problems - at a price of course.

Originally Posted by Biggus

Having only got into 'proper' woodworking a couple of years ago I went through all of this fairly recently, and I found that while many machines can look good on paper one issue in particular turned out in practice to be non negotiable for me, and that is that any machine I could be happy with in the long term should have a quick release blade guard and a riving knife so I could remove the blade guard, fit the riving knife and make non through cuts such as when cutting tenons, dados etc.

I first bought a Hafco SB-12 which seemed a lot of saw for the price, but the lack of the aforementioned features became a real pain almost immediately, and after only three or four months I gave the SB-12 to the local men's shed and bought a Carbatec TS-C250P-30TG instead. The ability to remove the blade guard and install a riving knife in a few seconds, plus the fence that would lock up square reliably and accurately completely changed the way I worked.

Some people who have had this saw have said it took a fair bit of farting around to get it set up properly but mine went together like a dream and was properly aligned and ready to go right from the start. Maybe I just got a good one or maybe quality control has improved between the previous experiences from other posters and mine, I can't say, but I reckon it's the best bang for your buck table saw you can get at the moment. I'm very happy with mine and can see myself being so in the long term, it's accurate, reliable and doesn't have any annoying quirks that ruin the woodworking experience for me the way the SB-12 did.

The other brand to look at from reports from other posters on this forum is Harvey. I don't have any experience with them but owners of these models are pretty much universally pleased with their purchases.

Good luck with your search for machines that will satisfy your requirements.

Cheers, Richard.

This is really helpful, thanks Richard. The Carbatec is a little outside my budget, but given I doubt I would ever need to upgrade it's worth considering. How do you find the blade guard dust extraction on it?

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

True, but that doesn't fit into marketing's lexicon - only the latest greatest lens / tool / machine will solve all your problems - at a price of course.

Exactly! And the thing is, I know I am a sucker for that kind of marketing sometimes, so I am constantly trying to make sure I look at the right qualities in something like a TS!