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  1. #1
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    Default Questions about drum sanders

    Hi, I have some really basic questions about drum sanders. I've never used one of these, or even seen one in action, so I just want to get a feel for what they can do.
    Here's my questions
    1. do you get snipe with drum sanders (like you do with a thicknesser) - or does the sander do a smooth job from end to end.
    2. what happens when you put small pieces in the sander - like 200mm x 70mm - can it handle these.
    3. do they make much noise, say compared to a thicknesser
    4. what is the dust collection like (ie like my thicknesser which is at least 99%of dust produced or like my tablesaw which is about 75% at best.

    I am thinking about this sort of thing, mainly https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/L1105

    cheers
    Arron
    Apologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.

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  3. #2
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    Arron - coincidentally I'm looking at getting the same machine, just waiting until the H&F sale in November 'cos they sometimes have $100-150 off this machine.

    I've used the twin drum version of this, but don't want to get the twin drum for myself as it needs a bigger power point. The single drum version should run off a standard 13A point.

    The one you're looking at seems to come out of the same factory as the twin drum sander, i.e. Taiwanese rather than Chinese made. From using the twin drum sander, I'd say there isn't an issue with snipe on the length of the board provided it is presented correctly on the conveyor. Side to side flatness was what I was concerned about, and although these machines take a lot of fiddling to set up they can give excellent thickness uniformity. Even the twin drum sander doesn't make anything like as much noise as a jointer/thicknesser.

    All these drum sanders need excellent dust extraction - a 4" port, and I'll be using a 2hp dusty with single hose.

    I have considered the alternative open-sided machine sold by Carbatec and H&F:

    L110 | machineryhouse.com.au

    This gives more flexibility in terms of wider boards (2 passes), but one end unsupported means it is more likely to flex in use. This cheaper machine also only has a 2" dust port, so the first job would be hacking a hole in the lid to fit a 4" dust port. Interestingly I have come across another version of this machine which has some useful mods to address these issues, but its only available in WA

    New Oltre Sander for sale - MS3156C, 28917

    Note the larger dust port, and support on the end of the sanding head.
    Last edited by Mr Brush; 12th October 2011 at 10:42 AM. Reason: typos

  4. #3
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    I have both an open end single drum and a large double drum sander. Snipe can be an issue if the material is not supported properly on both the in and out feed. Raised and fielded panel doors can also show a bump in the stiles if the door is fed into the sander dead square. Slightly angling the door on the infeed means the drums dont hit the rail square on, which causes the bump in the stiles. Set up can be fiddly but worth the trouble. If drums are not parallel with feed table, thickness of the piece will be different at both edges. This can be overcome by reversing the piece each pass, rather than resetting the drums. Dust extraction is critical, particularly with twin drums, they produce a lot of dust. Keep the abrasive from clogging or burn lines will be an issue. An old thong (footwear not undies) run across the drum while spinning will declog it. These machines are much quieter than a thicknesser. Small pieces are not a problem, provided they are big enough to engage the drum before leaving the presssure roller. Very handy machine to have.

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Brush View Post
    Re the above unit - Note the bracket at the free end of the drum sanding head, its there for a reason which is (if you remove it to do wider material and theres every possibility that you will) to hold the free end still. When I checked these units out I nu-did the bracket and discovered there was too much free play movement in the sanding head. All 3 units on display had the same problem. I think the price was $700 for the 22" wide sander. I brought a Jet 22" for $2400 (3 times the price) but solid as a rock.

    Keep your fingers clear of them as they can grab and pull your fingers in as quick as a flash.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arron View Post
    Hi, I have some really basic questions about drum sanders. I've never used one of these, or even seen one in action, so I just want to get a feel for what they can do.
    Here's my questions
    1. do you get snipe with drum sanders (like you do with a thicknesser) - or does the sander do a smooth job from end to end.
    2. what happens when you put small pieces in the sander - like 200mm x 70mm - can it handle these.
    3. do they make much noise, say compared to a thicknesser
    4. what is the dust collection like (ie like my thicknesser which is at least 99%of dust produced or like my tablesaw which is about 75% at best.
    Arron
    I've got one of these


    as others have said setup is critical but worth the effort -- more so for thick pieces than really really thin stuff which you should mount on a carrier board (and the carrier board can be sanded so that it is parallel with the drum).

    dust collection is critical

    keep the belt clean to avoid burning

    I've never noticed snipe
    the shortest piece I've put through is about 150 long BUT at that length I always back the short piece up with another piece so that both pieces go past the drum

    Noise.
    well I always try to use muffs -- but then I'm trying to protect my remaining hearing


    It's sometimes difficult to tell if the sanding drum is turning never place your hand near the drum unless you have visually checked that the drum is not turning -- if the sanding drum it catches your hand you wont be using taht arm for a month or so (if you're that lucky)
    one forumite's story https://www.woodworkforums.com/f67/in...arning-116562/
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  7. #6
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    Default thanks - and another question

    Thanks for the replies, guys - and especially the safety warning (hadnt really considered how dangerous they could be).
    Ian, I think the idea of a carrier board - sanded down by the drum sander itself - will overcome most of my issues.

    there was a question I forgot, however: can you 'sand down through the grits' using a drum sander. I'd like to at least be able to do a medium sand followed by a fine sand. I guess this depends on low long it takes to replace the paper. If it takes too long to setup, then I guess its impractical. Any clues?

    Fyi: hand injuries limit me hand sanding, hence the interest in mechanising this job, perhaps more then most people would consider practical.

    cheers
    Arron
    Apologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.

  8. #7
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    Do you have some sort of anti-skid surface on the carrier board to prevent the workpiece sliding off?

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    It's sometimes difficult to tell if the sanding drum is turning never place your hand near the drum unless you have visually checked that the drum is not turning -- if the sanding drum it catches your hand you wont be using taht arm for a month or so (if you're that lucky)
    one forumite's story https://www.woodworkforums.com/f67/in...arning-116562/
    Re the above Thats me.

    Arron, yes you can sand down through the grades, its just a bit tedious with belt changes.

    With the Drum sanders you need to be aware of belt flutter (you will know when this happens) which means the belt is slack and need to be re-tensioned. If you don't re-tension the belt and continue using it, it will break thus you loose that belt for use in the sander.

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arron View Post
    Thanks for the replies, guys - and especially the safety warning (hadnt really considered how dangerous they could be).
    Ian, I think the idea of a carrier board - sanded down by the drum sander itself - will overcome most of my issues.

    there was a question I forgot, however: can you 'sand down through the grits' using a drum sander. I'd like to at least be able to do a medium sand followed by a fine sand. I guess this depends on low long it takes to replace the paper. If it takes too long to setup, then I guess its impractical. Any clues?

    Fyi: hand injuries limit me hand sanding, hence the interest in mechanising this job, perhaps more then most people would consider practical.
    Arron

    you may have the wrong idea about this type of machine

    You shouldn't think of a drum sander as an alternative to hand sanding.
    Drum sanders are really good for thicknessing material that is too thin, too highly figured, too wide or too short, to put through a thicknesser
    They are also good for removing the machining marks left by a thicknesser
    They will not replace a hand sander

    In the "ideal world" a board goes through a thicknesser, then a drum sander to remove the "ripples" left by the thicknesser (using say 120 grit and possibly 180), and then is given a going over by a random orbital sander down to at least 180 if not 240 or 320.

    Sanding through the grits is relatively easy. Dad and I have had our sander for about 5 years. On a good day I can change the grit in about 1 minute. On a bad day it can take 5 minutes or more. Because each grade of paper is a different thickness, the drum height has to be carefully adjusted each time the grit changes.

    If you have hand problems, you might like to try changing over the paper at the dealers before you commit to buying one -- engaging the tension clamp on the inboard end of the paper can involve some significant hand contortions.

    Depending on the nature of your hand injuries, you may be better off with a different sanding option.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClintO View Post
    Do you have some sort of anti-skid surface on the carrier board to prevent the workpiece sliding off?
    I've used double sided tape

    the key issue for me is keeping the drum away from the rubber conveyor belt -- sand that and it will no longer grip menaing you need a new one
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  12. #11
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    Arron - bad news for both of us I'm afraid.....

    I just called up Hare & Forbes to see when their annual sale is happening (it's 10/11/12 November incidentally).

    I asked whether the DS-13 drum sander was likely to be included in the sale. They told me they have none in stock (in Sydney), none on order, and no intentions of getting any. Apparently the only one in the whole country is in WA.......

    When I asked why they still advertise a product on their webpage which they clearly cannot supply, no straight answer was forthcoming. I wonder if this comes under the anti "bait and upsell" legislation ??

    In my experience Hare & Forbes are one of the worst offenders in this regard. Last year they even advertised massive sale discounts on products which they didn't have.

  13. #12
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    Did you ask them why they arent stocking it. Have they had problems with that model. I see Carbatec no longer stocks something equivalent either, so I guess that leaves this model https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/L110 (or going up to a twin drum model at over $2k).

    cheers
    Arron
    Apologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    Depending on the nature of your hand injuries, you may be better off with a different sanding option.
    Are there any other options ?

    I'm learning to be realistic about what I expect out of drum sanders. I now think it would be good if its able to clean up a board after the thicknesser, down to perhaps 240 grit, then sand with a ros from there. I can hand sand, but its limited.

    cheers
    Arron
    Apologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.

  15. #14
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    I was mainly interested in the DS13 (single drum version) because the drum is supported at both ends, just the same as the twin drum machine. Once set up, this should maintain alignment better than the cheaper L110 (or Carbatec equivalent), at the expesne of limiting the width of boards that can be sanded.

    I would use the sander mainly for final dimensioning of timber at maybe 120 grit, including making thin boards (2-3mm) for laminating. I like the idea of a sander because it can handle just about any timber, whereas a helical cutterhead for my JPT-310 (for about the same money) would still have problems with some highly figured boards. This especially true for thin laminations.

    The JET range of drum sanders may well be good, but are expensive compared to the Carbatec/H&F offerings. There is a tiny JET machine (10/20), but I think even that one is well over $1000. Back to square one for me.....

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arron View Post
    Are there any other options ?

    I'm learning to be realistic about what I expect out of drum sanders. I now think it would be good if its able to clean up a board after the thicknesser, down to perhaps 240 grit, then sand with a ros from there. I can hand sand, but its limited.

    cheers
    Arron
    Hi Arron
    In Coarse, Medium, Fine Chris Schwarz talks a lot (and demonstrates more) about how to use hand planes to dress boards ready for finishing. To help exlplain how the Coarse, Medium, Fine concept applies to woodworking, Chris makes these observations about production scale wood working
    a thickness planer is used to dress timber to size -- the coarse step
    a drum sander is used to remove the machine marks left by the planer -- the medium step
    a random orbital sander is used before the final hand sanding -- the fine step

    so for what I think you want to do, the drum sander will remove a lot of the drudgery from timber preparation. You can dimension your components about 1/2 to 1 mm oversize with the planer, then sand to final thickness with the drum sander (starting at about 120g and switching grit till the components have gone through the drum at 240 grit.
    Then use a ROS -- if your hands are bad, I suggest you look for minimal vibration in the ROS, the Festo 150/3 or 125/2 come to mind
    You might then only need to hand sand above 400 grit and then only as part of your finishing technique.

    Depending on what you make and the construction methods you adopt, it might be possible for you to largely eliminate hand sanding
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

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