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Thread: 15amp welders on 10amp circuits
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23rd November 2010, 08:42 PM #136SENIOR MEMBER
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23rd November 2010, 09:01 PM #137
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23rd November 2010, 09:25 PM #138SENIOR MEMBER
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Perhaps, instead of pleading for the discussion to be terminated, you could explain exactly what the "horrendous" consequences are, and also explain, fully, how they come about?
For example, perhaps compare and contrast the risks between plugging two 2400 watt heaters into a double 10A GPO as against plugging a welder with a 15A plug into the same socket?
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23rd November 2010, 09:43 PM #139
The only commonality between the 2 sides of a 10 amp GPO are the connection terminals (at the back) - the switches and outlet sockets are separate. So plugging 2400W into each outlet would cause 10 amps to flow through each outlet and switch (not 20 amps). Plugging a 15 amp load into one of these sockets would cause a 15 amps to flow through and outlet and switch (which remember are designed for 10 amps).
So you are running the outlet and switch at 150% of their rated capacity. Maybe it's just me, but that seems pretty logical and not all that difficult to understand.Cheers.
Vernon.
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Bite off more than you can chew and then chew like crazy.
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23rd November 2010, 10:04 PM #140
If we're going to get into the esoterics of the thing, the heaters don't pull 10 amps continuously. They will until the thermostat setting is reached and then they'll shut off until it cools down again. A welder will draw a continuous current whilst it's in operation, so I suppose it depends on how long you use it for at a time as to whether there's any heat build up. If you are welding constantly for an hour, then you will have up to 15A running through the cable for an hour. So presumably the size of the conductor and the installation parameters will determine how much heat builds up in the cable and therefore whether or not there is any risk of melting insulation or fire.
"I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."
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23rd November 2010, 10:12 PM #141SENIOR MEMBER
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Certainly - in terms of ratings stamped on the packet, no argument there. But evidence has shown that at least one of the two major manufacturers of sockets in Australia uses identically-sized internal conductors for both 10A and 15A sockets. Furthermore, the conducting pin size of a 10A plug is identical to a 15A plug. One has to ask, where does the difference really lie?
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23rd November 2010, 10:24 PM #142
... 1 example is hardly conclusive .
Unless you are SURE that the 10 amp GPO socket you are plugging a 15 amp appliance into is EXACTLY the same as a normal 15 amp socket, then you are taking a risk.
Now are you sure that everyone else out there who is convinced by your presentation of the "evidence" also has a 10 amp gpo capable of handling 15 amps (for all you know they could be using 1950's gpo's or some cheap chinese one) ... the answer is obvious and a much as you wish it to be true, it doesn't make it so.Cheers.
Vernon.
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23rd November 2010, 10:26 PM #143SENIOR MEMBER
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I'm going to guess you're not a welder?
There is absolutly no way to predict the duty cycle upon which a heater operates - it could be a poorly-insulated, freezing room, it could be outside, it could be a radiant heater that typically doesn't have a thermostat.
A welder, by comparison, has a specific duty cycle. It's on the compliance plate - it tells you the duty cycle for specific welding current over a specific time - and it's not an hour.
For example, a welder with a 15A plug is likely to be a "light-industrial" unit - at it's absolute maximum capacity (which can well be argued is very rarely used) a typical such welder will spec a 30% duty cycle over 10 minutes. That's weld constantly for 3 minutes, cool for 7 minutes.
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23rd November 2010, 10:33 PM #144
Silent I am on the same page as you regards the OP's question and the current legality of DIY work in Oz. I have no argument with that so I have nothing to disprove. But you did take someone to task that they could not use low fatalities in OS countries to support a DIY system here. Maybe so, but it is quite valid to say that DIY electrical OS does not correlate with a higher fatality rate. I'm sure those people are arguing the same thing as you they're just not saying it the way you want. So I ask you, you say the OS statistics cannot be used to imply a safer system and promote a similar system here, then you go on to say that you support a DIY system in Australia - On what basis? Clearly it cannot be on a safety basis since you've already said the OS results are meaningless and the high Australian rate indicates tighter restrictions are required. So why do you support appropriately controlled DIY?
Cheers
Michael
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23rd November 2010, 11:06 PM #145SENIOR MEMBER
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Certainly, but given it's one of the two major suppliers of sockets, it does give pause to wonder about the design and manufacturing decisons made for 10A and 15A sockets. Add to that the identically-sized pins on both - surely if there was a significant issue in socket capacity, the pins would be of a significantly different size?
Now are you sure that everyone else out there who is convinced by your presentation of the "evidence" also has a 10 amp gpo capable of handling 15 amps (for all you know they could be using 1950's gpo's or some cheap chinese one) ... the answer is obvious and a much as you wish it to be true, it doesn't make it so.
As for the presence of 1950's GPOs or cheap Chinese ones, I'm not entirely sure they are necessarily of inferior design, nor am I sure that if they are inferior, they are not just as likely to fail when presented with a load close to their design limit over a sustained period.
Since we are talking decades here, there's a thing called a "double-adaptor". They were very common in the past, and enabled people to put a 20A load on a single 10A socket. If they were feeling creative, they could stack a couple and really make that socket work. Hence lamenting a 150% of design loading may be trivial in comparison to the real-world loads a socket manufacturer had to deal with.
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23rd November 2010, 11:16 PM #146
There was a test done on our sister forum (Renovate Forums - Powered by vBulletin) on the Clipsal and HPM 15 Amp GPO's and the 10 Amp GPO's from both Manufacturers.
Apart from the larger earth pin aperture on both manufacturers' 15 AMP GPO's the size of the connecting "springs"/screws/Cable holes/ was exactly the same as the 10 Amp GPO's.
Just putting that out here.
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23rd November 2010, 11:25 PM #147GOLD MEMBER
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you could explain exactly what the "horrendous" consequences are, and also explain, fully, how they come about?regards,
Dengy
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24th November 2010, 06:51 AM #148
OK so based on one example and a hunch you are willing to take the risk ... good for you. I would rather base my decisions on the following FACTS:
1. ALL 10 amp gpo's are rated to handle 10 amps.
2. ALL 15 amp gpo's are rated to handle 15 amps.
Over and above that we are guessing.
Now I will say again - unless you are SURE that the 10 amp GPO you are using can handle 15 amps, then you are taking a risk. Suggesting it is ok for everyone else to do such a thing based on the "evidence" you have presented (1 example and some assumptions/hunches) is irresponsible.Cheers.
Vernon.
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Bite off more than you can chew and then chew like crazy.
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24th November 2010, 08:16 AM #149There is absolutly no way to predict the duty cycle upon which a heater operates - it could be a poorly-insulated, freezing room, it could be outside, it could be a radiant heater that typically doesn't have a thermostat."I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."
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24th November 2010, 08:26 AM #150it is quite valid to say that DIY electrical OS does not correlate with a higher fatality rate
The reason I support DIY is because, quite simply I would like to do my own wiring around the place. It has nothing to do with statistics or anything else.
The "if anything it strengthens it" comment is a non-core argument. I am not using the stats to make any point. I am arguing against the stats being used to make the DIY point."I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."
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