Thread: 15amp welders on 10amp circuits

silentC - you can lead a horse to water.............etc.

True. But I actually don't really care whether the horse drinks or not. I'm more concerned with the horse's assertion that the water is, in fact, a small, off-duty Czechoslovakian traffic warden.

(sorry for the Red Dwarf reference...)

Originally Posted by SpiritLevel

Bit touchy today, are you? As my behind is not pimply, I won't take offence.

You do seem very protective of the electrical standards - are you an electrician?

Perhaps by reading all the posts, you would have read this

Originally Posted by Master Splinter

Update. I was wrong.

After metaphorically getting off my pimply behind and actually looking at AS/NZS3000,

Could we keep this nice and non-personal please gentlemen?

Otherwise we may have to close this thread (after working hours of course!)

And the standards are given legal force how? The legislation which would have had even more input from the electrical trades.

Your argument is that the wiring standard is somehow invalid because it was designed to protect the electrical trades. It clearly was not. The legislation prevents unlicensed people from doing their own wiring. It is enacted by parliament, not the electrical trades. They are two separate documents. Your argument that the wiring standard attempts to prevent entry to DIYers is wrong. It is the legislation which does this.

Did you bother to read all of my posts? Its a mystery how you missed the reasonably clear points I made. I offered up a couple of examples of sub-optimal regulations and from this you make up the assertion that I state all standards are complete rubbish. Verballing is what they call it in policing!

You are mincing words. Your intention was to cast doubt on the validity of the standard by suggesting that through your own "experience" you have seen that many standards are poorly designed for various reasons which you then enumerate. Why else did you bring it into the discussion? What other conclusion is there to draw?

Bit touchy today, are you? As my behind is not pimply, I won't take offence.

The comment was not directed at you. It was directed to the person who I was quoting.

No I'm not touchy at all. For what it's worth, I don't consider you an arm chair expert at all. That title belongs to people who actually attempt to become conversant with an issue by reading the documentation and then holding forth on it. Or sometimes vice versa.

You do seem very protective of the electrical standards - are you an electrician?

No I'm not. I'm a computer programmer. What are you?

Originally Posted by silentC

In the case I quoted, seven judges of the high court found that a citizen of Australia can bring legal action in an Australian court against a company operating in the US for material which was published on a web server in the US.

This means that the focus was shifted from where the material was published (the US) to where the defamation occurred (Australia). The laws of Australia apply to the case, not those of the US.

As it happens they settled out of court. But the decision means that if a person can show that a case in common law can be made against a another person who has published information on a web site hosted in another country, they can have recourse through the courts.

I don't know whether it would extend to the tort of negligence because this one was specifically to do with where a defamation action can be brought. In any case, I don't think I'd want to risk it myself on principle. Would love to see a test case though. Putting your hand up?

As for the web site owner telling authorities to get stuffed, I think it has been made quite clear in the sticky post that if someone wants to go after you because of something you've posted, the site owners will have no hesitation in handing over your details:

Rest assured that we have in the past and will continue to do so.

Originally Posted by silentC

the site owners will have no hesitation in handing over your details:

all they have is an IP address and an email address.. Both of which can be totally anonymous, and even if they can be traced it only points to an ISP account, not a computer, not an individual..

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Back on topic, I have now melted several 15 amp sockets with a 140 amp welder plugged into them (15amp plug fitted as standard)... Have also buggered 2 X15 amp plugs with my 250amp MIG welder....

You are straying from your original argument that the site, being hosted in the US, is subject to US laws and not to Australian laws.

I will agree that identifying people posting on the site could be difficult in some cases. But there are plenty of cases of people who thought they were anonymous turning out not to be so.

The point is that we are Australians providing advice to an Australian about something that they may or may not do and the advice, if responsibly given, should take into account Australian standards and Australian laws. If an American or an Englishman asked the same question, the answer could be different.

Frustrating as it may be (or not, because most people ignore it anyway), we do have a law against it here.

The 'it's for your own safety' argument is debunked by the fact that many 'DIY allowed' countries have lower electrical death rates than Australia.

Oh, oh, elephant in the room. I'll ignore it.

(oh...on the chart...which is from the NZ electrical regulator....Germany and the UK and [I think] the Netherlands* all allow DIY wiring).

*well, I know that Denmark allows it, and I have the suspicion that it is the same across Europe, but I lack the language ability to check 'em all.

Originally Posted by silentC

The point is that we are Australians providing advice to an Australian about something that they may or may not do and the advice, if responsibly given, should take into account Australian standards and Australian laws. If an American or an Englishman asked the same question, the answer could be different.

Frustrating as it may be (or not, because most people ignore it anyway), we do have a law against it here.

And the point I would make which I believe still valid is that was is posted here is subject to US laws.. Sure I could sue a company based overseas but that is like hitting someone with a dead fish, pretty pointless. Remember it is legal in the US for a non-electrician to do domestic wiring..A homeowner who has done the approprioate course can wire their house in the US.. We can't even run a Cat5 cable..

Lets say I own a US based forum and on that forum person A posts how to wire up a Cat5 wall socket.. Person C reads it and sticks his electric drill through a electrical wire and dies... Family of person C then attempt to sue person A for giving out advice. The forum admin refuses to hand over any info as to who person A is as what person A wrote is not illegal in the US..

Your example used defamation which is illegal in both countries... If we took it to giving advice we would see countless AU families suing US websites that show you how to wire up a Cat5 cable...

Women driving a car is illegal in Saudi Arabia, does that mean anyone posting instructions on how to teach a woman to drive a car is liable to be sued by a Saudi Arabian?

We're talking about negligence. You would have to show that the duty of care had been breached. It's not just a matter of giving advice on something that is illegal in one country or another, it is having that advice lead to misadventure. Aside from that, it makes no difference what country any of the parties live in. The case I quoted demonstrates that at least in some cases, a person in another country can be made answerable to the laws of Australia. I would not rule it out. However it is getting into esoterics.

Oh, oh, elephant in the room. I'll ignore it.

Nobody is ignoring it, it's just a fallacious argument which we have heard before. The figures given do not relate specifically to electrocution deaths that can be attributed directly to faulty wiring, they include all deaths, including industrial accidents.

And in any case even if Australia does have a higher incidence of death caused by faulty wiring, it in no way supports the argument that prohibition should be lifted. If anything, it strengthens it.

Originally Posted by silentC

If anything, it strengthens it.

Not at all...

It could mean

That given the large call out and hourly rates that electricians charge that more and more people are doing their own wiring...

You then have two solutions... Change the laws to follow the more mainstream laws in other countries, allow people to do basic wiring after doing a course, like a restricted electrical ticket that is then checked by a qualified inspector..



Or crack down severely, restricting all sales of electrical items to only qualified people..

Cracking down will do nothing while getting electrical work down is so bloody expensive... It costs me a minimum of $50 just to get an electrician to visit due to distance, and that is if he is available... Others charge $150+ in travel alone.

We need to take a hard look at the shortage of electricians in this country and work out if the laws are contributing to unsafe wiring....

What would you prefer, a house extension wired by someone with no idea or someone who has done a TAFE course allowing them to do it and signed off by an inspector..

Australia has moved on from 1970 when most people did a trade and few did university... Now it is the opposite and also now tradesman earn as much or more then their university trained counterparts.... Laws need to change to recognise this...

"It could mean" = speculation. Without data, it's nothing more.

Anyway, the argument here is not whether or not we should be allowed to do our own wiring. I think most people agree that if there was some way you could become certified to do your own domestic wiring, it would be a good thing.

The facts are that currently in Australia it is not legal to do your own wiring. We have a wiring standard that is expected to be applied and there is a process of supervision, inspection and reporting in place that controls the work done by qualified people.

These things are intended to improve the quality of electrical work (conspiracy theories aside). Whether they do or not may be debatable but there is no doubt that they exist and that they are enforceable by law.

So...less knowledge about a topic equals safety.

Cool bananas, I'm never going to die of ebola then! (hands over ears, "I can't hear you, I cant hear you".)

And a report compiled on electrical safety by the electrical regulator in charge of safety isn't about safety after all. Who woulda thunk?

And the country with the lowest electrical fatality rate (Netherlands) allows DIY? Must be a slip of the statistics, as we all know that a no knowledge/bad touch approach makes you safer!

Ok, yeah - case in point - those untrained insulation installers proved that not knowing anything about electricity is, in face, much safer.

They knew nothing at all about how houses were wired, and they were totally safe crawling in a roof space with sheets of electrically conductive material because they didn't know to look out for T&E when shooting staples into rafters, or to look out for old or damaged insulation, or joins isolated with insulation tape (as was allowed until about the 90's) that have unravelled in the heat or any of the other potential mishaps in a roof space.

Ignorance is bliss, QED.

Just to get a word in between the banter I sent a question to the company I mentioned earlier asking if it legal to use the RV-02 for a 15A welder on a 10A circuit.
heres their reply
" Yes you can use an Ampfibian for your 15amp welder and it will be
perfectly legal and safe. The reason this is the case is that you cannot
overload the supply circuit if you are plugged into an Ampfibian. Just
remember though that the Ampfibian is designed to protect the supply
powerpoint from loads higher then 10amp, so you may experience repeated
tripping of the Ampfibian as thats what its designed to do, protect the
supply power from overload. I have had people use our older model on welders and it worked fine. It really just depends on the welder and how its used."
Back to the banter
Cheers
Michael