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Thread: 15amp welders on 10amp circuits
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22nd November 2010, 04:07 PM #106Intermediate Member
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And the standards are given legal force how? The legislation which would have had even more input from the electrical trades.
It's also a logical fallacy to suggest that because you have one example of a poor standard, that all of them must be so. There's a bit of a tendency for people to make all sorts of assumptions based on very little fact. By your own admission you haven't read the standard, so in my opinion there is absolutely no basis for your assertion.
As far as I'm concerned, it would be better to hire an electrician than to take advice from an armchair expert who has just recently gotten off his "pimply behind" and actually looked at the wiring standard.
You do seem very protective of the electrical standards - are you an electrician?
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22nd November 2010 04:07 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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22nd November 2010, 04:08 PM #107silentC - you can lead a horse to water.............etc.
(sorry for the Red Dwarf reference...)
"I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."
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22nd November 2010, 04:14 PM #108
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22nd November 2010, 04:23 PM #109And the standards are given legal force how? The legislation which would have had even more input from the electrical trades.
Did you bother to read all of my posts? Its a mystery how you missed the reasonably clear points I made. I offered up a couple of examples of sub-optimal regulations and from this you make up the assertion that I state all standards are complete rubbish. Verballing is what they call it in policing!
Bit touchy today, are you? As my behind is not pimply, I won't take offence.
No I'm not touchy at all. For what it's worth, I don't consider you an arm chair expert at all. That title belongs to people who actually attempt to become conversant with an issue by reading the documentation and then holding forth on it. Or sometimes vice versa.
You do seem very protective of the electrical standards - are you an electrician?"I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."
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22nd November 2010, 05:44 PM #110Retired
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22nd November 2010, 06:19 PM #111Pink 10EE owner
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all they have is an IP address and an email address.. Both of which can be totally anonymous, and even if they can be traced it only points to an ISP account, not a computer, not an individual..
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Back on topic, I have now melted several 15 amp sockets with a 140 amp welder plugged into them (15amp plug fitted as standard)... Have also buggered 2 X15 amp plugs with my 250amp MIG welder....
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22nd November 2010, 06:28 PM #112
You are straying from your original argument that the site, being hosted in the US, is subject to US laws and not to Australian laws.
I will agree that identifying people posting on the site could be difficult in some cases. But there are plenty of cases of people who thought they were anonymous turning out not to be so.
The point is that we are Australians providing advice to an Australian about something that they may or may not do and the advice, if responsibly given, should take into account Australian standards and Australian laws. If an American or an Englishman asked the same question, the answer could be different.
Frustrating as it may be (or not, because most people ignore it anyway), we do have a law against it here."I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."
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22nd November 2010, 07:13 PM #113
The 'it's for your own safety' argument is debunked by the fact that many 'DIY allowed' countries have lower electrical death rates than Australia.
Oh, oh, elephant in the room. I'll ignore it.
(oh...on the chart...which is from the NZ electrical regulator....Germany and the UK and [I think] the Netherlands* all allow DIY wiring).
*well, I know that Denmark allows it, and I have the suspicion that it is the same across Europe, but I lack the language ability to check 'em all.
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22nd November 2010, 07:16 PM #114Pink 10EE owner
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And the point I would make which I believe still valid is that was is posted here is subject to US laws.. Sure I could sue a company based overseas but that is like hitting someone with a dead fish, pretty pointless. Remember it is legal in the US for a non-electrician to do domestic wiring..A homeowner who has done the approprioate course can wire their house in the US.. We can't even run a Cat5 cable..
Lets say I own a US based forum and on that forum person A posts how to wire up a Cat5 wall socket.. Person C reads it and sticks his electric drill through a electrical wire and dies... Family of person C then attempt to sue person A for giving out advice. The forum admin refuses to hand over any info as to who person A is as what person A wrote is not illegal in the US..
Your example used defamation which is illegal in both countries... If we took it to giving advice we would see countless AU families suing US websites that show you how to wire up a Cat5 cable...
Women driving a car is illegal in Saudi Arabia, does that mean anyone posting instructions on how to teach a woman to drive a car is liable to be sued by a Saudi Arabian?
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22nd November 2010, 07:22 PM #115
We're talking about negligence. You would have to show that the duty of care had been breached. It's not just a matter of giving advice on something that is illegal in one country or another, it is having that advice lead to misadventure. Aside from that, it makes no difference what country any of the parties live in. The case I quoted demonstrates that at least in some cases, a person in another country can be made answerable to the laws of Australia. I would not rule it out. However it is getting into esoterics.
"I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."
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22nd November 2010, 07:27 PM #116Oh, oh, elephant in the room. I'll ignore it.
And in any case even if Australia does have a higher incidence of death caused by faulty wiring, it in no way supports the argument that prohibition should be lifted. If anything, it strengthens it."I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."
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22nd November 2010, 08:02 PM #117Pink 10EE owner
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Not at all...
It could mean
That given the large call out and hourly rates that electricians charge that more and more people are doing their own wiring...
You then have two solutions... Change the laws to follow the more mainstream laws in other countries, allow people to do basic wiring after doing a course, like a restricted electrical ticket that is then checked by a qualified inspector..
Or crack down severely, restricting all sales of electrical items to only qualified people..
Cracking down will do nothing while getting electrical work down is so bloody expensive... It costs me a minimum of $50 just to get an electrician to visit due to distance, and that is if he is available... Others charge $150+ in travel alone.
We need to take a hard look at the shortage of electricians in this country and work out if the laws are contributing to unsafe wiring....
What would you prefer, a house extension wired by someone with no idea or someone who has done a TAFE course allowing them to do it and signed off by an inspector..
Australia has moved on from 1970 when most people did a trade and few did university... Now it is the opposite and also now tradesman earn as much or more then their university trained counterparts.... Laws need to change to recognise this...
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22nd November 2010, 08:22 PM #118
"It could mean" = speculation. Without data, it's nothing more.
Anyway, the argument here is not whether or not we should be allowed to do our own wiring. I think most people agree that if there was some way you could become certified to do your own domestic wiring, it would be a good thing.
The facts are that currently in Australia it is not legal to do your own wiring. We have a wiring standard that is expected to be applied and there is a process of supervision, inspection and reporting in place that controls the work done by qualified people.
These things are intended to improve the quality of electrical work (conspiracy theories aside). Whether they do or not may be debatable but there is no doubt that they exist and that they are enforceable by law."I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."
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22nd November 2010, 09:46 PM #119
So...less knowledge about a topic equals safety.
Cool bananas, I'm never going to die of ebola then! (hands over ears, "I can't hear you, I cant hear you".)
And a report compiled on electrical safety by the electrical regulator in charge of safety isn't about safety after all. Who woulda thunk?
And the country with the lowest electrical fatality rate (Netherlands) allows DIY? Must be a slip of the statistics, as we all know that a no knowledge/bad touch approach makes you safer!
Ok, yeah - case in point - those untrained insulation installers proved that not knowing anything about electricity is, in face, much safer.
They knew nothing at all about how houses were wired, and they were totally safe crawling in a roof space with sheets of electrically conductive material because they didn't know to look out for T&E when shooting staples into rafters, or to look out for old or damaged insulation, or joins isolated with insulation tape (as was allowed until about the 90's) that have unravelled in the heat or any of the other potential mishaps in a roof space.
Ignorance is bliss, QED.
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22nd November 2010, 11:25 PM #120
Just to get a word in between the banter I sent a question to the company I mentioned earlier asking if it legal to use the RV-02 for a 15A welder on a 10A circuit.
heres their reply
" Yes you can use an Ampfibian for your 15amp welder and it will be
perfectly legal and safe. The reason this is the case is that you cannot
overload the supply circuit if you are plugged into an Ampfibian. Just
remember though that the Ampfibian is designed to protect the supply
powerpoint from loads higher then 10amp, so you may experience repeated
tripping of the Ampfibian as thats what its designed to do, protect the
supply power from overload. I have had people use our older model on welders and it worked fine. It really just depends on the welder and how its used."
Back to the banter
Cheers
Michael
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