Thread: 15amp welders on 10amp circuits

Originally Posted by mic-d

Just to get a word in between the banter I sent a question to the company I mentioned earlier asking if it legal to use the RV-02 for a 15A welder on a 10A circuit.
heres their reply
" Yes you can use an Ampfibian for your 15amp welder and it will be
perfectly legal and safe. The reason this is the case is that you cannot
overload the supply circuit if you are plugged into an Ampfibian. Just
remember though that the Ampfibian is designed to protect the supply
powerpoint from loads higher then 10amp, so you may experience repeated
tripping of the Ampfibian as thats what its designed to do, protect the
supply power from overload. I have had people use our older model on welders and it worked fine. It really just depends on the welder and how its used."
Back to the banter
Cheers
Michael

You are such a big spoilsport.

I was thinking that there could be at least another 3-4 pages of threads just on that topic!!

Who has the popcorn concession, anyway?

I have a 15amp outlet in my garage, but need to do some welding way down the back yard. The outlet is about 70metres from where I want to weld.
I also have an outdoor 10amp outlet about 10 metres from where I want to weld.

My question is, am I better off getting 4x20 metre 15 amp extension cords and plugging them all together and running off the 15 amp plug, or do I make a 15 amp female 10 amp male short extension and use that to plug into the outdoor socket next to where I want to work?

I don't want to file the earth pin on the welder as it will void my warranty.

Originally Posted by Geoff Dean

I have a 15amp outlet in my garage, but need to do some welding way down the back yard. The outlet is about 70metres from where I want to weld.
I also have an outdoor 10amp outlet about 10 metres from where I want to weld.

My question is, am I better off getting 4x20 metre 15 amp extension cords and plugging them all together and running off the 15 amp plug, or do I make a 15 amp female 10 amp male short extension and use that to plug into the outdoor socket next to where I want to work?

I don't want to file the earth pin on the welder as it will void my warranty.

Originally Posted by Master Splinter

I was thinking that there could be at least another 3-4 pages of threads just on that topic!!

You just got your wish

Cheers
Michael

And the country with the lowest electrical fatality rate (Netherlands) allows DIY? Must be a slip of the statistics, as we all know that a no knowledge/bad touch approach makes you safer!

It's false logic. You are attempting to use the absence of a statistic to prove a positive statement: there are very few electrical deaths in The Netherlands - The Netherlands allows DIY - Therefore DIY is safer than no DIY. This is a non sequitur.

.RC said
"It could mean
That given the large call out and hourly rates that electricians charge that more and more people are doing their own wiring..."

Silent said ""It could mean" = speculation. Without data, it's nothing more."

Earlier Silent you said "even if Australia does have a higher incidence of death caused by faulty wiring, it in no way supports the argument that prohibition should be lifted. If anything, it strengthens it."



Well that's just speculation too, that it strengthens it, and false logic. DIY is not allowed in Australia therefore higher fatalities in Australia means it should remain illegal (perhaps made more illegal?) is just as illogical. It could well be that if DIY was allowed by those having done appropriate training (whatever that would be)it may well reduce fatalities. A stance either way is just speculation.

I get the feeling that now people are just trying to showcase their debating skills.
Cheers
Michael

The thing is Michael, I am not relying upon it to make my point. All I am saying, and all I have ever said, is that currently in Australia it is not legal to DIY. I've also said that some of the suggestions made are irresponsible because they either void the warranty of the appliance; or may not comply with the wiring standard and the person giving the advice has not taken any steps to investigate whether or not they would comply by visiting the site and inspecting the existing installation.

These are facts. If you can disprove any of them, I'd like to hear it.

The debate about whether or not DIY should be allowed in Australia is a separate issue and I've already said I'm more or less in favour of it with appropriate controls. But it's not. So when someone asks a question, the answer, I believe, should be framed along those lines.

Originally Posted by Geoff Dean

I have a 15amp outlet in my garage, but need to do some welding way down the back yard. The outlet is about 70metres from where I want to weld.
I also have an outdoor 10amp outlet about 10 metres from where I want to weld.

Unfortunately the long extension cord is the only legal option.

That said, extension cords - even 15A ones - are commonly 1.5mm2 conductors. That 10A outdoor outlet is most likely wired with 2.5mm2 conductors, therefore there will be less voltage drop and less heat in the cable, which one would think is an altogether better situation.

If it were me, I'd go the short adaptor lead and make sure there weren't any other loads on the 10A outdoor socket circuit.

Originally Posted by silentC

No I'm not. I'm a computer programmer. What are you?

I am a lobbyist for an industry association, and have eight years in this and similar positions. Plus a stint in a consultancy.

What does that mean? I read and write policy submissions for a living, along with analysing regulations, economic studies and academic articles. I talk to a lot of companies about how they are regulated.

I have worked for three national governments, and for one state, as a public servant. I am familiar with the political and government systems in four countries.

Worked in two parliaments (including the Australian one). I also have two general elections and a federal one as a campaigner.

So I think I am qualified to talk about political and regulatory processes and how governments respond to and regulate risk.

Enough about me.

Well with all that experience one would think you'd understand that the Wiring Standard in and of itself prevents no-one from doing their own wiring work and that it is actually the Home Building Act (in NSW) which requires all electrical work to be done by, or under the direct supervision of, a licensed person. So your suggestion that the Wiring Standard was at least partially set up to protect the electrical trades has no basis. The Home Building Act may well have been, but it contains no detail on how wiring is to be done, so I don't see how it can possibly follow that protection of the electrical trades could produce a wiring standard that does anything more or less than ensure the compliance with best-practice and safety of an installation if it is followed.

What you seem to be making is a general comment that standards are often comprised of directives that have an intention other than improving the quality of the product or service to which they apply and that there may be elements of slackness or political interference involved. No-one is challenging that, but since you can't give any examples that can be found in the Australian Wiring Standard, the comment doesn't really contribute to the debate one way or the other.

Originally Posted by SpiritLevel

Enough about me.

Quite so.

That's all well and good, but the point being made is that the standard has nothing to do with how the industry is regulated and legislated. It has to do with how the actual work must be done.

You seem hell bent on trying to moosh the regulatory side of the industry, with the standard, and all that in a effort to prove that the standard is "corrupt" and by extension, so it the clauses to do with 15amp GPO circuits.

Sorry, but I think your tin foil hat has slipped.

VernonV and Silent C,

isn't the standard - which is "how the actual work must be done" - part of the regulatory framework?

It must have some legal force otherwise it is merely advisory. Are there penalites for work not up to the standard? What gives it its legal force? The NSW Home Building Act and other Acts in other jurisdictions, all of which will have been through a public consultation and rounds of negotiations.

VernonV -

You seem hell bent on trying to moosh the regulatory side of the industry, with the standard, and all that in a effort to prove that the standard is "corrupt" and by extension, so it the clauses to do with 15amp GPO circuits.

If you read closely my complete posts, my point is clearly that some parts of any set of standards and any set of regulations can be swayed one way or the other at the margins, and often to the benefit of stakeholders. Doing so is part of my job.

There is a complete branch of economics - regulatory economics - that explores this. You might also want to go have a look at the work of the Office of Best Practise Regulation (which is the part of the Australian Department of Finance and Deregulation)

It is a subtle argument, but not one worthy of the 'tinfoil hat' accusation .

I think it it time for the Moderator to close this thread. It has become circular and getting nowhere. The message has been made loud and clear by several contributors - don't use 10A GPO's or 10A circuits for 15A appliances, the consequences can be horrendous

Your entry into this debate was to suggest that the standard should not be assumed to be all about the safety and suitability of the product or service - that there are often other factors involved which may be introduced, or left in place, through complacency or vested interests. Nobody is disputing that. However you haven't given us any grounds to suggest that the particular part of the wiring standard that pertains to 15amp GPOs is at issue in that regard.

What I'd like to know is how you suggest people should now proceed, given your revelation? Should we disregard every standard, on the grounds that at least two of them have, in your opinion, invalid sections which are there for some ulterior motive? Where would we be then?

It seems to me that, as a professional lobbyist, your work would involve detecting an error or flaw in the standard and then setting about having it rectified, presumably to improve the standard. I'm assuming that means that you see value in having standards - or maybe manipulating them in favour of your or your client's purposes is your aim. In which case I'd say that you are no better than the people you accuse

As for the rest, all I'm doing is responding to your comment that "the standard we have been discussing ... has financially benefited the electrical trades, by removing competition from DIYers". The standard has done no such thing. The legislation has done that. We could have the standard without the bit of the legislation that requires a license. You could make it legal for a home owner to do his own wiring, so long as it complies with the standard. The standard would not have to change to support it.

I live in remote Nortern Territory and use a 15amp welder with a filed down power pin into a 10amp power point. After reading all this thread, I'm getting in a Sparky.
thank you.