Thread: Absoulute welding novice looking for advice.

The thick welding gloves you are wearing should be insulation enough.

You might want to rethink using a stick welder on the typical thin steel used in car construction (even ute trays are pretty thin - I think about 1.6mm is considered 'thick enough to brag about' for an aftermarket tray body, with OEMs being thinner and relying on ridge patterns for solidity).

Either MIG or TIG is what you need.

And holding the metal is generally a stupid idea, assuming you want it in an actual position and not just 'kinda attached somewhere in the vicinity with welds that look like bird poo'.

If your gloves are damp/wet, or your hand bare, you only get a minor boot, more like a bit of an unpleasant tingle.

Before tackling the project proper, practise on some scrap first. Get the hang of the machine, and what sort of setting you might need before you go blowing holes in what you want to use, because the muscle memory doesn't always come immediately flowing back

This idea that the job is live, is poorly understood by many.

you need to understand that there are two wires and the arc that competes the circuit.

You can not get a shock unless you have yourself connected to both the earth and the electrode.

The job is actually earth and the electrode is live.

People routinely sit or stand on the job while they weld...and even the concrete slab that the job is sitting on can be part of the circuit sometimes.

A welder can give you a real good bite..if you put yourself in the wrong place.

You just have to make sure you do not connect yourself to both parts of the circuit.

You could sit on the job with your bare posteroiur and weld away ( not recommended for a number of reasons)....as long as you did not contact the stick or the bare jaws of the rod holder you should not be able to get a shock.

But the problem is you do contact the stick and maybe the bare jaws of the rod holder when you fit a new rod or adjust the rod in the holder.

for a number of reasons it is a very good idea to wear the propper clothing..as a minimum, boots, long trousers and socks that cover between your boots and trousers and a long sleved shirt.

and in addition to a mask or helmet some sort of head covering ( a bandana is good) and good gloves.......some leather welding stuff is better.

now a lot of people weld bare handed...even doing heavy welding where the dominant hand had a glove on to protect against burns..some have the left hand bare so they can handle the sticks and tools......not a big drama with a stick welder.......but there are issues.

I have recieved tingles when I have been sitting on the job.( trousers on) and changed the electrode with my bare left hand...tingle in the fingers and thru the posteroiur thru the trousers.

Awareness of the issue is most important.....a rubber mat to sit on is even better.

the average stick welder runs at arround 50 volts.....it will bite hard and if you are very unfortunate 9 or stupid) it might kill you......but it is not the same sort of hazard as 240v mains.

on another note
Now one thing that many don't grasp is that electric welders produce quite a bit of UV radiation and you can get pretty decent radiation burns on unprotected flesh......stick weldrers mostly are not so bad...but you can get a bade dose of sunburn if you are not carefull......MIG and TIG on the other hand produce heaps of UV and you can get very bad radiation burns in a very short time if you dont cover up.

I got a good burn on my lower leg when my trousers rode up past my socks.

a mate of mine wore an older shirt when doing a session of tig......when he took his shirt of to shower..he had a slightly red chest and clear prints of his pockets where a second thickness of cloth stopped the burn.


These days I do not fire the MIG up with out a leather apron, spats and gaultets...AND doing up the top button on my shirt.

cheers

I can only echo the other blokes comments and in addition would point out that the type of stick welder is important to your success or failure of your project.

A cheap low end transformer based unit like an Ozito is good for a lot of home projects but sadly not thin wall sheet metal likely to be found on a standard ute tray.

Sadly transformer based welders have a arc starting (striking the arc) voltage that is way too high for say the 1.6mm RHS metal that the ute tray is likely to be constructed from.

The effect from the arc strike is nearly an explosive like arc and the rapidly heats the thin metal instantaneously and results in a hard to fill hole. I am not saying the process is impossible but just very difficult and not easy for some to master.

On the other hand a small inverter unit ( DC voltage) would provide a much softer and smoother start to the weld. setting the amp level so there is enough amps to weld with but not so much as to burn a hole is a subjective skill. Again, as has been pointed out, a practice run duplication of the material section and thickness you wish to weld on, will be a good idea.

As for holding the part part in your hand, it is not a good idea. The arc is in excess of 3000ºC and heats up the pieces quite rapidly. May I suggest that you need both hands as a new welder to manipulate the welder handpiece and control the electrode. An assistant holding the work in a pair of pliers can safely hold pieces to be tacked.

Get in the habit of using a strike plate ( a bit of scrap ) to ignite your electrode and bring it to arc temperature and then while the electrode is still red hot at the end-quickly move across and strike on your work - makes for a much easier start.
Other than that.
Good luck
Grahame

The welder I purchased is a Cigweld 170amp inverter type welder. Not a transformer type. It can do TIG welding as well but I have not got the handpiece or gas to do that yet.The guy at the shop convinced me it would be suitable for most of my needs.
Also the tray on my ute is quite thick checkerplate steel (maybe3mm). Also plan to use the welder for chopping and changing the odd motorcycle frame. So feel reasonably happy with my buy.
Thank you for all the advice however one thing remains unanswered.......Should I disconnect vehicles battery when welding on it? Modern vehicles sure have a lot of electrics in them and it'd be a pity to do unneccessary damage, wouldn't it? or am I just being overly cautious? I had always understood its best to disconnect your battery when using a battery charger so imagine the same would apply for a welder.

There was recent discussion on a US forum about this. As an example, Ford has a bulletin about their F-trucks. You're supposed to disconnect batteries, unplug CPUs and ECUs, ABS circuits, the works. However, lots of people chimed in saying they've done none of that and never had a problem. Most just disconnect batteries. A couple of people had fried computer systems, I think on big trucks where probably more welding gets done than an average family cars. If it were mine, and don't take my advice as rock solid, just my opinion, I'd probably feel comfortable disconnecting batteries and make sure I had the ground lead on clean, sanded, bare metal and use an auxiliary ground cable to make sure both pieces being welded were grounded nicely. And ground nice and close to the weld site.

As to your other questions they've all been answered. I've never been shocked stick welding and I've welded holding jobs in my hand plenty of times. What has happened is I've been burnt. Only badly once, when I picked up a piece that was still very hot and in the second or so before my nerves and brain registered it was too late. Learnt my lesson there. Slow down and think every time you take off your gloves and every time before you touch metal. I still sometimes brace or lean against something that's still too hot and get a bit warmer than I'd like.

Grinding sparks cause me to pay more attention than welding though. Great way to start a fire.

I've been shocked quite a few times tig welding, but just from the HF when I either forget to attach the ground or when I've accidentally shot HF to the filler. I dunno that I could get used to the party trick of the HF to the bare finger, it tickles a bit.

If you want to do bike frames, that will be fairly high level stick welding. I did quite a lot of hobby stick welding on pipe when I built a trailer with lots of pipe and it's tricky. I already had done quite a lot of welding when I did the trailer but it still wasn't easy. You need to maintain arc length but also maintain correct angle while quickly moving around the joint and the hand movements are very large compared to the arc movement so it's hard to stay steady, particularly on small diameter pipe.

Your ute tray will be reasonably easy if it's 3mm. With the proviso that flat welding will be the easiest but out of position welding will be harder. Practice on lots of scrap first. Vertical up or overhead on 3mm would justify practice, for example. Anything involving gravity, corners, weird joins etc can be hard. A straight flat bead can be easy but it's never like that.

As well as Grahame's tip of a strike plate, which I used to use extensively, another similar tip is keep a file on hand. After a stop the slag freezes over the rod tip making it impossible for an arc to start. The strike plate will eventually bust it off or you can use a file (or rough concrete floor etc) to break it off first and then restarts are as easy as a fresh start.

Originally Posted by Legion

If it were mine, and don't take my advice as rock solid, just my opinion, I'd probably feel comfortable disconnecting batteries and make sure I had the ground lead on clean, sanded, bare metal and use an auxiliary ground cable to make sure both pieces being welded were grounded nicely. And ground nice and close to the weld site.

As to your other questions they've all been answered. I've never been shocked stick welding and I've welded holding jobs in my hand plenty of times. What has happened is I've been burnt. Only badly once, when I picked up a piece that was still very hot and in the second or so before my nerves and brain registered it was too late. Learnt my lesson there. Slow down and think every time you take off your gloves and every time before you touch metal. I still sometimes brace or lean against something that's still too hot and get a bit warmer than I'd like.


As well as Grahame's tip of a strike plate, which I used to use extensively, another similar tip is keep a file on hand. After a stop the slag freezes over the rod tip making it impossible for an arc to start. The strike plate will eventually bust it off or you can use a file (or rough concrete floor etc) to break it off first and then restarts are as easy as a fresh start.

Batteries I am for disconnecting batteries- but if circumstance preclude this: Keep the work return clamp-the earth close to where the arc is -The damage is caused by the earthing seeking return in the wrong places :ie thru the computer.

Electric shock As for getting zapped-the best way is to minimise possible circumstances leading to a zap-

Dry floor, rubber mat is good ,Rubber soled work boots. Dry welding gloves - sweaty wet ones will conduct electricity-also don't use em to dunk the job in cooling water-buugers them for both functions- electrical insulation and heat insulation.

Hot work handling
A pair of cheapy vice grips or tongs for hot work handling

As far as the strike plate is concerned I employ it as I want the electrode flux below the core wire at the electrode end.I believe having the electrode red hot at the start point reduces the electrode voltage at the ignition point reduces the tendency to burn through at that point of starting the tack or bead.Try both ways and see what works.

The DC inverter welder is ideal. Set it up electrode negative which will further minimize burn through if indeed you are welding on 1.6mm thickness - not so much of a problem if its 2.4mm or 3.2mm w thickness.

Please give feed back on how you go as other people will also be looking at this as a similar exercise and learning from it.

Best wishes and good luck
Grahame

Originally Posted by Grahame Collins

Please give feed back on how you go as other people will also be looking at this as a similar exercise and learning from it.
Best wishes and good luck
Grahame

Ok Grahame since you asked for it, here is some feedback.
DSCF4326.JPG My flat tray vehicle came with ridiculously high sidesteps to get onto the tray, 770mm in fact!, high enough to tear a hamstring just getting up there. The picture above shows the original sidestep with another step fixed to the bottom of it. I paid a local sheet metal worker to make up the other step. He charged me 40 bucks which I was happy with. He used those 90 degree angles you can buy from metal suppliers. I just had to paint the steps and re install them. Here are a couple of close ups of his welds.....
DSCF4327.JPGDSCF4328.JPGHe did not know his welds were going to be posted online for all and sundry to judge, so you would have to say they are his everyday run of the mill welds. They were done with a mig welder and to my untrained eye they look pretty good. I think he did a neat job fitting one tubular section to another at right angles and am not sure how he cut the half radius out of the upright. Suspect he may have had a special radius cutter. I only got him to do one side of the vehicle because I wanted to fit an under tray storage box on the other side.
DSCF4330.JPGSo here is a shot of the other side with underside storage box attached. The side step on this side was going to prevent the under tray tool box lid from opening. However with a dremmel tool and reinforced cutting wheel I cut through the weld where the tubular steel meets the roll bar and manage to shorten the length so that it clears the tool box lid. I bought 2x90degree angles and a metre of 33.4mm steel pipe from the metal shop. The tubular steel the original side step was made from is 32mm dia and seems to be coated in some sort of zincalume anti rust treatment. So this is what I ended up with...................
DSCF4332.JPGDSCF4335.JPGDSCF4334.JPGDSCF4333.JPGDSCF4332.JPGDSCF4331.JPG
If Id known I was going to post the pictures for scrutiny I would not have painted the job beforehand. But then again the painting is only the start of it.
So these welds were done with my new cigweld 170amp inverter type welder and I could not believe how difficult I found them to make. I managed to my dismay to blow a hole right through the steel in one place (which I managed to fill up with more weld). I was not happy with how some of the welds turned out so chipped off the slag and put more weld on on some spots, and even more on after that in other spots.
The end result looked like...well...a Mad womans breakfast. So I took to the ugly welds with a grinder first and then a flap disc so that if ever someone used the sidestep barefoot they wouldn't lacerate their foot.
DSCF4338.JPG This weld in particular seemed un co-opperative. Its where the step meets the roll bar. I think it must be coated with something (zincalume or some sort of galvanising) It just spat and nothing wanted to stick. I took it apart and hit the surfaces with the flap disc and tried again. I think the weld held somewhat and I admit it's as ugly as a hatfull of sphincters but it doesn't really matter as it's held in place naturally by the hole in the upright.
Anyway, many many hours later I have a new shortened and extended sidestep on the vehicle.
DSCF4347.JPG The under tray toolbox can also open and close happily. The BIG question on my mind though is will the welds hold up to lots of future use?. I hope so but I'm not bristling with confidence. Also makes the 40 bucks the sheet metal worker charged for the other side seem like a bargain.
Scathing criticisms accepted with relish!

You picked a difficult thing to try for your first outing - thin walled tube with stick, fishmouthing and welding all around. My first attempts at welding something was much simpler and I ground a lot of weld off too (and blew more than a few holes).
Hats off to you for even attempting something like that.
It takes more practice than you would think to be able to get nice neat welds like those on the other side. Everyone's welds look awful to start with. How quickly they improve depends on how much you practice and how much you try to get better.

Michael

You did OK considering the difficulty of the job, as Michael said. The only thing that would make it harder would be if you had to do it in situ.

The pro on the other hand didn't do as well as I'd hope. Undercut and inconsistency.

Oh, and good on you for a great follow up. You will learn as fast as possible with feedback like that.

For someone who is new to welding its a big thumbs up from me.
It is fit for purpose and pretty good as far as the visuals are concerned. If you are doing that well on on some thinwall, the thicker projects you encounter should be a piece of cake.
I predict now as you become confident with the welder , a great number of potential projects will pop into mind.

Well done!


Grahame

I would go so far as to say that all things considered, you did a far superior job to the sheetie who attempted to weld the other step.
Good job and you can only improve with practice.
I will leave you with a thought from one of my trade teachers. "We are welders, not grinders. If you are not happy with the look of a weld, grind it out and do another one that you are happy with." Not having a shot at you at all, but grinders are the most over used piece of gear in a workshop. People have a fixation with grinding every weld flat, or "just taking the tops off it." Learn to run a pretty bead, (not at the expense of strength though) and you will love the finished product and be proud to show it off.