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27th January 2011, 07:31 PM #1Senior Member
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Some advice needed for new MIG Pls
Hello,
I am thinking about buying a new or second hand MIG welder for general work around the shed, and home. I am also considering buying a precut 6.2m Ally boat kit to weld up down the track a bit but I want to practice a bit before so.
So I need a decent machine that can weld 6mm Ally plate all day. But like most, don't have a huge budget. I am not greatly experienced either with MIG welding Ally so something that is a bit forgiving ( if that is possible) might be good.
Not sure whether to look for a good solid old tech machine or the latest thing????
Any advice greatly appreciated.
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27th January 2011, 11:27 PM #2Engineers are qualified to make claims
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Have you considered the Tokentools 200 amp inverter MIG for $799 delivered to your door? I have done some research and so far it is the best priced inverter and it comes complete with integrated TIG and stick welder and includes the TIG setup. I spoke to them last week about this new Australian design of theirs, I am sure there will be copies on the net soon enough.
Tokentools inverter MIG TIG and ARC welder - MIG welding and TIG welding and ARC welding
Also the Unimig KUMJR165 seems ok but is $1000 excluding delivery and does not include the TIG setup.
John
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28th January 2011, 09:26 PM #3SENIOR MEMBER
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I have the Unimig KUMJR165 - the local shop flogged it to me for about $850 last year - it's been a brilliant machine so far, but I notice Unimig have updated it on their web site - it now has digital displays like the Tokentools unit, seems to have a spool gun connection, but I don't think it has the arc force or post flow controls on the front like the Tokentools.
However, one difference I do like is that the power connection for the torch is inside the side-cover, leaving the + and - connections on the front free to have stick leads plugged in all the time, making it very quick to swap between MIG and stick (if you're running flux-cored wire).
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29th January 2011, 03:26 PM #4Senior Member
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I like the unimig trade series migs as the duty cycles are really high and they are a transformer machine. For all the benefits of the inverters I think a transformer will last longer and be more reliable than MOSFETs or IGBTs in the longer term. I have no evidence to base this on other than having killed lots of semiconductors in electronics projects and having seen how fragile they are in high current/high temperature applications.
On the down side these are big, heavy and a lot more expensive. The 270 SWF is over $3k and the smaller compact versions are still about $2k.
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29th January 2011, 11:25 PM #5Senior Member
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Thanks for your advice so far on this,
I am also concerned about the longevity and toughness of the modern machines, but according to some guys they are easier to use and more forgiving particularly with Aluminium.
Not having used either of the two styles to MIG weld Ally I tend to believe that the newer inverter pulse MIGs are indeed easier for the novice to use, but I do like sticking to the tried and tested also.
It would be great to hear from anyone who has used both and can comment on the pros and cons and what is a good machine in either technology.
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31st January 2011, 06:24 PM #6Member
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My concern with the Unimig and the token tools machines would be whether you can buy the right rollers for Aluminium for them. That would be something you'd have to ask them.
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1st February 2011, 05:05 PM #7Senior Member
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2nd February 2011, 08:29 AM #8
John,
Rather than say this is what you need I have gone the other way and have endeavoured to point out the things out that one needs to take account of. Knowing all of those requirements the machine can be selected.probaly i have forgot something but someone may be able to add more.
Contact tips
Use a larger than normal contact tip as aluminium will increase in cross sectional diameter when hot. The last thing you want is the ali wire jamming in the contact tip. The welding shops will sell you the tips which are a couple of thou larger than the wire.
Ok! You are on a budget but don’t skimp on these relatively cheap consumables or you will pay dearly for it. Don’t let anyone tell you that you will be able to drill them out as the hole in a mig tip is not straight but deliberately curved over its length to put pressure on the wire to transfer the electrical energy. A straight drilled hole reduces your electrical efficiency.
Wire diameter
Use a wire diameter of 1.2mm or larger. Smaller diam wire is not stiff enough to be driven through without snarling at the drive..it can jam as above and then your problems start.
Gun cable liner.
Use a Teflon liner .We are about minimising all friction of impedances in the drive and gun cable.
Gun cable .
If at all possible keep it straight. The less straight it is the more friction increases and so chances of a wire snarl will increase. To minimise the friction even further you may consider chopping down the overall length of the mig gun cable.
Selecting the wire grade
Use a stiff grade of wire-if its marine it will be a series 5000 alloy and 5356 is the most suitable.
Drive rolls.
You need the correct profile on the set of drive rolls. The are matched to the wire diameter in the form of a U shape. You will need the rolls this shape to fully support the (softer ) wire
Wire spool brake
In the centre of the spool on the axle there is a nut /spring/washer assembly. Back it out and just tension it to a minimum –remember minimum tension or drag on that wire as it travels through the cable liner.
Gas shielding.
There has been a shipload of changes to the gases used since I used mig on ali .I would check the BOC or the gas supplier to see what is used but I am betting that a argon helium mix is the go.
Mig machine capacity
Using a machine of higher capacity means that it is easier for it to be “cruising “when you tune to spray deposition mode when setting it up for migging ali. This means at around 180 amps the arc begins to change to spray. You don’t want a machine that has run out of steam right at that point.
For this reason a 195 amperage rating or preferably better is what I would recommend.
Set up
Added to this I would recommend a travelling kit as a 6.5 meter is a big boat. If you can rig up a swinging boom with a slide you can hang the traveller on .This allows extended reach and keeps your mig gun straight.
Conclusion
All the above point to a machine (to get your budget low) like a 195 Transmig 240 volt .The older ones are pretty cheap if you chase the auctions .They older ones where grey and the newer ones are blue. parts are still readily available as they use Tweco torches.The machine itself is fairly bullet proof as some examples I have seen survived a school work shop for a decade.
I have placed a picture of a transmig 195 at the bottom but cant find a pic of one with a traveller.Trust me they are around the place. Also pic of the drive U shape rolls needed.This machine will take the 15Kg spool size so it should be economical as well as being able to weld all day.
Cheers
Grahame
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3rd February 2011, 12:00 PM #9Intermediate Member
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Tokentools???
Can i ask why everyone seems to recommend token tools machines on this forum??? Is there a rep from token here or something. Nearly every request i see for inverter stick/tig machines, migs and the like theres someone saying check out this token tools machine.... Sorry but been using and selling machines for 15 years and have yet to find any chinese type machines that compete with fronius, kemppi, wia, lincoln and even cigweld... Sure some of them are quite good but lets face it you get what you pay for. Just curious....thats all...
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3rd February 2011, 03:51 PM #10Intermediate Member
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All goods points
Contact tips
Use a larger than normal contact tip as aluminium will increase in cross sectional diameter when hot. The last thing you want is the ali wire jamming in the contact tip. The welding shops will sell you the tips which are a couple of thou larger than the wire.
Wire diameter
Use a wire diameter of 1.2mm or larger. Smaller diam wire is not stiff enough to be driven through without snarling at the drive..it can jam as above and then your problems start.
Gun cable liner.
Use a Teflon liner .We are about minimising all friction of impedances in the drive and gun cable.
Gun cable .
If at all possible keep it straight. The less straight it is the more friction increases and so chances of a wire snarl will increase. To minimise the friction even further you may consider chopping down the overall length of the mig gun cable.
Selecting the wire grade
Use a stiff grade of wire-if its marine it will be a series 5000 alloy and 5356 is the most suitable.
Drive rolls.
You need the correct profile on the set of drive rolls. The are matched to the wire diameter in the form of a U shape. You will need the rolls this shape to fully support the (softer ) wire
Wire spool brake
In the centre of the spool on the axle there is a nut /spring/washer assembly. Back it out and just tension it to a minimum –remember minimum tension or drag on that wire as it travels through the cable liner.
Gas shielding.
There has been a shipload of changes to the gases used since I used mig on ali .I would check the BOC or the gas supplier to see what is used but I am betting that a argon helium mix is the go.
Mig machine capacity
Using a machine of higher capacity means that it is easier for it to be “cruising “when you tune to spray deposition mode when setting it up for migging ali. This means at around 180 amps the arc begins to change to spray. You don’t want a machine that has run out of steam right at that point.
For this reason a 195 amperage rating or preferably better is what I would recommend.
Grahame makes a great point here for all of you who want to weld aluminium. The correct setup for your machine is one of the most important aspects of trying to weld ali (especially 4043 - soft, frequent birds nest if wrong setup)
Further to Grahames comments:
With contact tips many companies of specific aluminium tips which are bored out to the correct size. 1.2mm ali tips for example (have 1.2A stamped on the usually) are bored to 1.32mm and also have a mild countersink on the end to prevent the wire sticking on a burnback.
Liners have made advance too with teflon (ptfe they call it now) becoming a bit of a thing of the past for some. I personally prefer polyamide graphite liner due to they are a bit stiffer than teflon and offer better feed...cheaper too. Companies like kemppi have made a snake liner (has little bumps on the inside, like a snake skin) which are awesome for feeding ali.
Would not recommend anything more than 3 metre for gun cable especially with a 2 roll wire drive system (top idler rolll and bottom drive roll) as seen on nearly all single phase machines. 4 roll is the go for ali but yet to see one on single phase??
5183 is a specific marine grade ali filler wire but people do use 5356 as well, depending on requirements, 5356 usually cheaper too and easier to find...
The machine Grahame has mentioned is a good machine (especially the U.S made old black/grey one) but really is the bare requirements in my opinion. Sure pulse migs are great but cheapest pulse mig is probably going to run you up for about $5000-7000 minimum.
Good work Grahame i must say... Ive been out to people that say there $8000 pulse mig is crap for welding ali!!. They spend the money on the machine but didnt spend the time making sure all the other aspects were right...
Cheers
Rappy
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3rd February 2011, 09:00 PM #11Engineers are qualified to make claims
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I think because Tokentools sell directly on ebay, have thousands of feedback points and are at 100% rating and have been selling for 12 years. They sell direct and don't rip customers off via a dealer network. If Fronius, Kemppi and others could sell inverters for under 1k then you would hear a lot more about them but they don't. I guess when you get enough independent people saying something is good it must be good, then again..... the magazines keep telling us the expensive stuff is better.
John
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3rd February 2011, 09:44 PM #12
Re all of the points with the ali welding. I made all of those mistakes when at a regional colledge and had the local ambulance ask could I weld up a bull bar.
A couple of points I should make here!
I am like the girl who can't say no and I assummed stupidly it was a nice steel bull bar.
No one was more surprised than me when they rocked up with the pieces for an ally bull bar. In my trials to make a decent job of it I made all of the blues above. It was only when I was on semester break(yeah!,yeah! , I hear the calls,bloody teachers ten weeks leave etc!) anyway I ran in to an old apprentice mate who then made a living welding -you guesssed it- welding ali.
He put me on to those points as well as shortening the guncable an hanging the 195 from a chainblock off the crane.
The point John made is he was on a budget and was a bit iffy about the chinese welders so I recommended the 195 Transmig-though a bigger transmig with a traveller kit would be better. I am fairly confident one of these could be picked up under $300 or $400.
Maybe less if John has 3 phase in his shed as I saw a bid on a 3 phase with traveller for $28 -yep $28 no mis print.
People see a dirty dusty cobweb covered machine and assume its a piece of Zhit.Not always.Those old girls clean up very nicely.
Remember he has a 6.1 metre boat and getting the wire feeder inside is a must. How bulky are these machines if no feeder comes with them? The wrong one could be a real pain to get in the right postion.
cheers
Grahme
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3rd February 2011, 10:41 PM #13danielson
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graham,if my 195 rural pack is the same setup as the standard machine(i keep this one just for ally)it has reverseable rolls and the "flip" side is correct for 1.6mm ally wire,and the gun is an uncommon 350 amp tweco which uses tweco no four parts,it is a totally reliable setup which if used with yuor recomendations will perform well for many years.mine is a blue model with traveller and is now 16 years old!
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3rd February 2011, 10:42 PM #14
A thousand dollars just buys the the tig pedal control for my Fronios.
In the coal mines they get coal dust through the boards of the Fronois machines.
I am told the electricians disasemble, wash with detergent and flush with ahose.Phenolic resin covered boards and really good connectors are the reason this can be done.
Kemppi,Fronios and Miller are far better, designed ,enginneered, manufactured and supported than the cheaper counterparts and accordingly will cost more.
Theres no development original ideas with the clones ,most are cheaply made with cheaper parts in most cases.
Token tools is the exception .He is an electrician who has specced these machines with better components ,changing from Mosfets to IGBT for instance.
The trouble with dealing with the Chinese is that if you design something well and have it manufactured in China, it will be copied and then appear as a competitor for your product.
Thats my opinion for what it is worth.
Grahame
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11th February 2011, 02:16 PM #15Senior Member
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Thanks a heap Graham Collins, and everyone.
I have taken a little while to get back to this post and didn't there were any answers.
I have still been researching MIGs online. at the LWS and asking anyone who may have an opinion.
Many of your points if not all have been covered in my quest so far and you are spot on with all of it and it certainly helps to see that confirmation from you and from your experience.
Thanks also for the tips on the Transmig 195. I will add that to my lookout list.
Funny you or someone here mentioned not to worry too much about the external appearance. A good machine lurks within.
I work at a school Man Arts dept and was refurbishing the two MIG machines there, I am an Electrician also so don't worry. Anyway they looked like Cr%p on the outside and totally full of black dust and rubbish on the inside, probably 15 or more years of neglect at a school welding room what would you expect.
So I totally cleaned them inside and out, spent a few hundred $ on replacements mainly cables and gun parts. They now look great, weld like new, and a pleasure to use for those who think welding is pleasurable.
The traveller on a boom will definitely be the go and I will get all that setup before I start any project.
My choice of machine and setup will definitely incorporate all the points below.
Thanks.
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