Thread: Are There Any Aids To Seeing ?

Well that's a fascinating statement.

You mean CIG's Sheild-Cor 15, for which they publish technical information intended for 'machine use', is used not by manufacturers in their machines, but by a host of backyarders like me who either:

1. Persist stubbornly in trying to improve their awful welding, not realising that it is impossible because the wire doesn't have enough flux, etc....

or

2. Fail to see or just don't bloody care that it is awful welding ?

I'd send you some pics of mine but I'm ashamed. It really is bloody awful.

I can do better with a stick. But that's not the point.

I did do a startling thing yesterday. I just stuck the wire into the centre of a butt joint and ran it straight down it and finished up with a beautiful little run of 'proportionate' weld. 'Proportionate' being my own term. Means that there seems ( to me ) to be the right amount of weld metal there to do the job. Rather than the 100 times overkill represented by a typical stick job on metal of this size.

I was very interested to note that the Cigweld specs for my sheild-cor 15 state it is for 'single pass only' welding.

Why don't I do this all the time? I can't see the plurry job, 'Orrie.

And I have been frightened of burning through. Arising from my stick experience with this kind of metal. And I've avoided edges like the plague. Attacking butt joints by going the meat at the side and 'stitching' across the joint either in one tack (usually) or 'zig-zag' (usually attempted, not successful).

Looks like I've got a lot to learn about Mig welding and this wire in particular.

Well. That's what I started off by saying...



p.s.

Just saw the pictures posted by Ben. My god. How do you do it? What size metal is that? If only I could do that. If only........

My wire is 0.8

My post was in reply to Edster, of course.

Could it be that you are new to welding and there is a lot going on once the arc is going. Your trying to keep things moving , trying to find the weld pool, a bit nervous , not breathing? Once your comfortable welding you might be surprised just what you can see! Just a thought.
Cheers.

I've used one reel of MIG wire - 100 metres - and about half a box of welding rods. That's my experience, total.

I think you're right. If I could relax into it, try more, experiment more.

I begin to see more on the MIG when I move my head back from the job. I begin to work better when I allow more wire to protrude...

Hi guys, one thing you can do(and i know it works as i used to get all my engineering students to do it) is to use a de-headed 4" nail with the point rounded over, and secured to the underside of the MIG torch cowl with a Jubilee clip, set at the right distance it will help you maintain a constant torch distance from the workpiece, and also act as a basic guide, allowing you to then concentrate on the weld pool and arc.

Originally Posted by BenM78

Not really, I just went and did one though, pulled first run, pushed top runs. Had to spend a bit of time adjusting, a bit more 'touchy' than solid wire...
Attachment 132099

0.9mm wire, as always pictures highlight everything bad in a weld. Toes look a lot better in reality.

Well I think we can actually blame the welder.
It's not able to wash the runs together or into the base metal because you can't turn up the volts enough with that wire.

Back on the seeing problem... I also have trouble & here are a few tips.

Get more light on the job.

If you can't weld outside in the sunlight 'cos it is too hot or raining etc then set up a good strong work light directed at the job.

Try not to direct it at your helmet as that is likely to set it off if it is an autodarkening one.

Mark out your weld line with plane old white chalk, it helps heaps.

I also have problems with the inside of my helmet lighting up with reflections.

Try to set up so there is noting reflective behind you that is going to bounce light from the arc inside your helmet.

Keep this in mind when you set up your work light as well.

Originally Posted by Cliff Rogers

Back on the seeing problem... I also have trouble & here are a few tips.

Get more light on the job.

If you can't weld outside in the sunlight 'cos it is too hot or raining etc then set up a good strong work light directed at the job.

Try not to direct it at your helmet as that is likely to set it off if it is an autodarkening one.

Mark out your weld line with plane old white chalk, it helps heaps.

I also have problems with the inside of my helmet lighting up with reflections.

Try to set up so there is noting reflective behind you that is going to bounce light from the arc inside your helmet.

Keep this in mind when you set up your work light as well.

An external light source that is behind you will also reflect off the lens inside the helmet.

Originally Posted by BenM78

Not really, I just went and did one though, pulled first run, pushed top runs. Had to spend a bit of time adjusting, a bit more 'touchy' than solid wire...
Attachment 132099

0.9mm wire, as always pictures highlight everything bad in a weld. Toes look a lot better in reality.

Also took a pic of a solid wire weld I have done, using straight argon though as I didn't have a Ar/CO2 mix.
Attachment 132100

I had a bit of a play around with using gas and using +/- settings and no gas, DCEN was by far the better setting. My father has a roll of Gasless flux core that is recommended on DCEP so whatever you use make sure you check the wire out properly with manufacturer specs. Majority of flux core wires are designed for use WITH gas too, so make sure if you want a gasless wire, you buy a gasless wire!

Gasless weld was done on 7/10 wire feed and 4/4 out of voltage settings.
Gas weld was done on 8.5/10 wire feed and 4/4 voltage.
Duty cycle at these settings is atrocious

Will buy a WIA 255 one day...

Not enough penetration in either of those welds.

Originally Posted by abrogard

My biggest problem is I can't see the job once the arc strikes.

Using a self darkening helmet. I've tried the whole range of darkness settings.

I'm using a MIG. Trying to learn.

I've learned that my biggest problem is losing sight of the join I'm trying to weld once the arc strikes.

So I wondered if there's any help to be had? Any tricks to it? Any ways to perhaps colour the join so's it shows up better? What about helmets? Would it help me to go try a few others? Do they vary in this respect at all? Mine's a real cheap one - would that mean anything?

What I'm having to do is tack, take a look, tack, take a look, tack..... Damn near hopeless.

?

ab

Hi,
one of the things I picked up in years of welding instruction was that students of all ages can have varying degrees of what we can call "enough good vision to weld properly"
- meaning that the vision you otherwise use in non welding tasks may not be up to the mark in matters regarding welding.

Not knowing your particular circumstances ,its not easy to pin point anything but here a range of ideas.

• Cheap welding glasses- get em at the chemist-in 1,5 ,2.5 and 3.5 strengths-wear under helmet-cost $20-$30
• Try them first in the chemist .
  
• The same strengths are available as a diopter lens available through welding suppliers -they are the same sizes as insert lenses and will fit most helmets- also come in 1.5,2.5.3.5 etc.$10 - $20
  
• Go to the optometrists and get a decent set of glasses suited to welding best option.$?????
  
• Measure the average distance from your eyes to where you weld -this will help in setting up the focal length for the glasses.
• Keep all the the optic aids clean,I pull mine out and clean them with window cleaner.
  
  If you are using a $300 welding helmet, I would naturally expect far better performance optically fromit than a $69 Techman- I have some Techmans and they are OK ,by the way.Possibly there is an adjustment problem or a flat battery or something of that nature in the $300 jobbie.

Originally Posted by abrogard

Well that's a fascinating statement.

You mean CIG's Sheild-Cor 15, for which they publish technical information intended for 'machine use', is used not by manufacturers in their machines, but by a host of backyarders like me who either:

1. Persist stubbornly in trying to improve their awful welding, not realising that it is impossible because the wire doesn't have enough flux, etc....

or

2. Fail to see or just don't bloody care that it is awful welding ?

Basically yes. It's buyer beware. They try to sell backyarders a wire that they shouldn't use because it fits the cheap welder they have.
It's like $100 per roll. It won't weld properly.

You're a little too trusting of manufacturers. Get a demo of it working.

Hi,
Those that have been here a while will know that for years I have been against the notion of claiming fluxcore or gasless wire as as substitute for gas shielded solid wire (mig).

I will state here that I REFER to thinner section & sheet application NOT heavier thickness-lets say 5 mm and above

The mig substitute line of horse pucks is a propostion put forth by the either clueless or unscrubled ( pick one ) vendors who promote this a way of avoiding the gas cylinder rental costs.

The Flux core process was developed for the heavy fabrication sector and we are talking 3 &4 mm diameter wire.Some fluxcore has metallic filler in the flux and very heavy deposits are the norm.To give the reader an indicator of the volume and rate of deposition.-some fluxcore spools weigh upwards of 1/4 ton -

Some of the larger single phase migs are aimed towards the agriculatural sector-Ie repair on ag tilling gear and light earthmoving

The piddling little diameters needed for light wire feed machines are simply not suited to the concept.

Fluxcore on sheetmetal leaves nasty acidic slag which is ruinous on painted over surfaces as it will eat through it eventually.
Unfortunately some newbies are unaware of this and are gullible to the line of spiel in what is basically a lack of knowledge about what they are getting into.
buyer beware

Grahame

Hi Mr Collins. Tell me, did you find there are some students that will never, ever be able to weld, because of their vision?

I already use these specs you are talking about, I think. 'Readers' they're often known as. I use them for reading. I didn't use them for welding but recently on this MIG stuff I have been using them.

I'll ask in the welding shop about lenses like that: magnifying lenses is what they are, really, I think. Known as 'diopters' but a 'diopter' is merely a unit of magnfication of a lens or somesuch, I think.

And I must confess in this forum, which is treating me seriously and discussing the subject seriously, that I've ignored all the advice about cleaning my helmet lens and such. A quick swipe with my gloved hand is all it's getting.

I'll get onto it, promise.

And talking the helmet - it's not a $300 cheapie. It's something like an $89 cheapie. Can't remember where I got it now - eBay I think. Yes, I did.

But if helmets vary what is the variation? What is it that is altering that makes a difference to our 'seeing' ? Note the people who've posted that their expensive helmets lay gathering dust while they weld with cheap ones! (which itself is confirmation that they vary - but doesn't explain how or why or why they'd sell one for more money that performs worse).

Lastly: what about Mr Edster's claims? If what he's saying is right I should stop trying immediately.

There's enough people posting that have extensive backgrounds in welding, even teaching welding and if they've used equipment such as we're talking about here: 0.8mm / 0.9mm flux cored MIG wire, they should be able to either support or refute Mr Edster's claims.

Would any such person care to comment, I wonder, I hope?

I'm not sure if that question would settle my question. If Mr Edster's claims turn out to be correct then does that mean there is NO 0.8mm gasless welding and therefore my problem doesn't arise?

Or do I still have a problem because my vision would be equally as bad on gas MIG ? Probably, I think. After all it is nearly equally bad on stick welding. (The point here with 'stick' is tha the job is bigger, the metal is larger, the join is easier to see. If I use stick on these little jobs I've got exactly the same trouble).

I think Mr Edster's point is fundamental and astounding - even shocking. Borders on fraud, doesn't it, if that's what they're doing.



Well, while I was composing this Mr Collins posted his own answer to it, I guess.

He seems to be claiming it simply does not work.

How about all those posters I've read (in other forums, other times) that claim to be happily welding light metal with gasless MIG by choice because they weld outdoors (they've said) and it handles the wind better? Are they simply doing a bad job? Kidding themselves? What IS going on?

Did you find there are some students that will never, ever be able to weld, because of their vision?

Some students found it difficult to attain a standard considered as Good,because a vision problem was just one of the disadvantages,among others they suffered, certainly ,some were plainly not suited to the task.I never had a student who could not weld because of vision ,alone.

But if helmets vary what is the variation? What is it that is altering that makes a difference to our 'seeing' ? Note the people who've posted that their expensive helmets lay gathering dust while they weld with cheap ones! What I do dislike about most of the expensive models is that they are too bloody heavy,hence I like the techman instead of the Miller offered at work

Cheapies have a slower darkening timeand don't have many sensors or a battery or adjustments for density.

they should be able to either support or refute Mr Edster's claims. Read my past posts about fluxcore vs mig.I'm with Edster as far as fluxcore for sheetmetal claims are concerned.

If Mr Edster's claims turn out to be correct then does that mean there is NO 0.8mm gasless welding and therefore my problem doesn't arise? People ask questions expecting them answered with out supplying enough information about their problem.If one is not there,on the spot it can be hard and a person can only give answser usually based on their perspectives and experiences.I had twenty years in industry before teaching.My responses are based upon what people tell me.

Or do I still have a problem because my vision would be equally as bad on gas MIG
Probably, I think.

See your optometrist for an answer there?

I think Mr Edster's point is fundamental and astounding - even shocking. Borders on fraud, doesn't it, if that's what they're doing.
That a salesman would or could take advantage of a customer and manipulate a desire for something.Welcome to the real world.

Well, while I was composing this Mr Collins posted his own answer to it, I guess.

He seems to be claiming it simply does not work.
Mr Collins did not say that at all. Perhaps you may care to read it again including the bit that said "
I will state here that I REFER to thinner section & sheet application NOT heavier thickness-lets say 5 mm and above"

Mr Collins,

Yep, that's fine. I fully understand you are talking about thinner metal. So am I. So are we all, aren't we?

I don't think there's any need to resort to red print, I'm on your side, I'm not trying to distort your words or put words in your mouth and I am, I consider, reading carefully everything that is written.

Let me reiterate:

I'm talking about welding galvanised rhs 1.5" x 1" x 1mm (if you'll forgive a mix of imperial and metric units) and I'm talking about trying to weld it with flux cored wire of 0.8mm diameter run from a cheap 130amp MIG welder.

And that's what I assume everyone who responds to the thread is talking about unless they state differently.

It seems to me yourself and Mr Edster are stating quite baldly that this kind of welding CANNOT be done.

To mitigate it a little we could say you're saying it cannot be done successfully. Well, that amounts to the same thing, to me, though it may have some hair splitting difference in logic.

I don't know how to slip around getting quotes from different posts here and there so I'll just have to refer to them. How about BenM78 11/3/10 7:18 and Edster 11/3/10 10:38 ? Ben is another supporter of this contention.

Seems to me it is all there in the statement that thin wire cannot hold enough flux to adequately shield the weld. If that's true then it simply cannot be done.


If it is marginal then it is practically the same result - it cannot be done with any confidence.

I'm just looking for an answer to that. (To the question 'can it be done').

I am certainly not trying to misrepresent any of the posters to this thread all of whom I'm respectful of and deeply appreciative of their efforts to help out in the discussion.

I've emailed Cigweld. I wonder if I'll hear back from them.

regards,

ab


p.s.

I meant to say thanks to Faren and Cliff Rogers for their suggestions. I've 'taken them onboard' as we say nowadays. And I'll give them a try.