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29th September 2014, 02:40 PM #76
So that G size bottle..will be as tall as mee by the time it gets a regulator on it and will weigh more than the doctor tells me I should...80kg.
SO....do I man up and build a new trolly....or whimp out and buy the "E".
cheersAny thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
Most powertools have sharp teeth.
People are made of meat.
Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.
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29th September 2014, 04:01 PM #77SENIOR MEMBER
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This is what I reckon the real benefit of siphoning off some argon into a smaller bottle. I have G size argon and argoshield bottles, luckily I don't have to move them, so to have them chained to the wall and not move them around works for me. It would at times be nice to have a little, 'self owned' E or even D size bottles that I could top up as needed from my G's and have on a trolley.
If you make a trolley for a G bottle, make sure it's got a wide wheel base. I did once consider making up a long welding cart with the G bottle horizontal, for stability. In this case it would be important to have good cage protection around the regulator. It also would make it harder to read the regulator gas flow.
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30th September 2014, 08:43 AM #78Senior Member
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- Mar 2008
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- Australia
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The main problem with decanting is the high pressure involved and therefore the safety risk with a flexible high pressure connection. There are a couple of decant kits on the market. There is also the smaller problem of contamination, which ideally requires a vacuum purge too. Contamination shouldn't be a problem if cylinders are kept closed when empty and the gas line is purged.
BOC sells a decant kit but no information is online and it might just be an LPG decant kit $187 +GST. http://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au-boc...ore/decant-kit.
PMC does this "Argon Connector Kit; GAK-02 - PMC Gas Control", website is down at present but I thought it was about $500.
If the market responds to Stargas low price rental and refills, the buy swap scheme will have to come down in price. The cheapest long-term supply for light use (approx <1 E cylinder/year or <2 D cylinders/year, about $200-250/year) is buy/swap G, the problem with buy/swap is being locked in to one gas supplier forever - and the prices that they decide for refills. The high startup cost means that it takes a few years to claw back the capital compared to the cost of rental. The high refill price 2.5 times that of StarGas means if you start to use more gas than one E cylinder per year with a buy swap, now you just get further behind. It's a bit like a mobile phone plan - stay under the limit and you're OK; go over and get slugged big time.
Looks like I will go with Stargas, after they clarify the meaning of "agreeing to buy all your gas supply from them".
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30th September 2014, 04:15 PM #79
It is important to look at the deals from the different players.
I was quoted $159 for an E size fill from my local power 10 agent and that was collected, where the speed gas agent is quoting $130 delivered.
For those of us that cant produce any volume consumption the best we can hope for on the rental model is about $90 collected
As for all this being tied in on the purchased bottle deals...well....if you are a low volume user you are ahead after 2 years.
Speedgas will buy back, upgrade or downgrade bottles....no problem.
I simply cant see a downside for the low volume user.
cheersAny thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
Most powertools have sharp teeth.
People are made of meat.
Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.
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30th September 2014, 04:50 PM #80Senior Member
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
- Location
- Australia
- Posts
- 141
Have looked at every deal I can find to date. But didn't know that anyone bought back gas bottles. That makes a difference to the high startup cost. But if I manage to keep a G size until after it has expired, I presume they are not going to pay me anything for it......???
(StarGas G refill is $92.40 metro delivered.)
Speedgas rep said they don't buy them back. Can sell on Gumtree or ebay.
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30th September 2014, 05:31 PM #81Senior Member
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- Sep 2008
- Location
- Perth
- Posts
- 363
I have a welding cart with a G2 bottle. The base is 1000mm x 500mm with the wheels outside that. After I built it and mounted up the bottle and wheeled it in and out of the shed over a few weekends, one day I noticed the top of the ball flow gauge clears the fully open shed rollerdoor ... by 1". Lucky I didn't bust it off. I just need to remember to fully open the door all the way and I'll be right.
Not many options on the west coast yet. Speedgas does the buy-a-bottle thing but their agent is a long way away from me. I'm with BOC, for now.
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30th September 2014, 05:57 PM #82
it may depend on which agent you are talking to.
as for the start up cost......you are ahead of rental after 2 years...bottles need recompliancing after 10.
remember this is a swap bottle operation I imagine it would be the fillers resposibility to recompliance the bottle.
after all....if a bottle is at a filling plant where recompliancing is done every day.....it is a simple and realtivly low cost operation.......recompliancing LPG bottles has become unviable because of the cost of transport to and from the compliancing workshop....because they are dangerous goods both ways.
I will raise the point with my local agent.......
BUT remember you are ahead after 2 years if you are a low volume gas user.....a mate of mine went across to speedgas two and a half years ago....when he had have the bottle freighted from northern NSW to get his bottle.......he has not needed a fill since...but he is already ahead.
because there is no rental penalty, going up a size in the bottle ends up getting you gas at about half the price and a larger bottle is not a hell of a lot dearer.
again...the economy of buying a bottle sits below 3 fills a year as the deals stand at the moment......4 fills a year and you may be marginally ahead on a rental plan.
But in 30 odd years I have renterd gass bottles I have never needed 3 fills in a year.....and some time the bottles have not been exchanged for several yaers in a row.
If I had been on a purchased bottle plan all that time I would be arround $12000 ahead in todays money.
and that is no small potatoes.
For a great many people, bottle rental is a deal breaker on MIG, TIG and oxy/ acettlene.
cheersAny thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
Most powertools have sharp teeth.
People are made of meat.
Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.
-
25th November 2014, 11:25 AM #83Senior Member
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- South Australia
- Posts
- 135
I just found power 10 gases - finally a purchase option in SA!
Think it was $360 for a D and $435 for a E of argon.
No option for anything bigger yet.
Not really wanted a to rent so this is a big help.
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25th November 2014, 11:48 AM #84Senior Member
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- Sep 2008
- Location
- Perth
- Posts
- 363
I have to rent since there's currently no alternative over here. I just got a G2 refill on the weekend. They tried to upsell me one of their new VIPR cylinders. ~1.5x the gas for not much more money since they're promoting them as they're new to market. I would have got one but I wasn't sure if it would fit in and out of my shed. As it turns out, it would, with 10mm to spare. Next time. I use a ball gauge flow meter and it has a built-in dial gauge so I'd have to piggyback my gauge on top of it.
The other thing was I asked about cheap deals that rumours talk about. Girl at counter said if I had an ABN I could negotiate with a rep directly to get up to approximately half off, at the rep's discretion. Getting an ABN seems a bit difficult for me and then it depends on the rep but half off is a good deal if they would give it.
I paid ~$380 inc GST for a G2 fill.
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25th November 2014, 12:07 PM #85
HELL $380+gst for a G refill.....That would cost me about $140 delivered from speedgas and probably less on a rented cylinder from BOC.
There would be moderately large volume bsuinesses that would be paying in the reigon of $60 to $70 for G fill of argon or mix...AND paying no rent.
They are bloddy crooks.
cheersAny thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
Most powertools have sharp teeth.
People are made of meat.
Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.
-
25th November 2014, 12:51 PM #86Senior Member
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
- Location
- Perth
- Posts
- 363
G2 is 10.2m3. It is a rented BOC cylinder. I will have to dig out my receipt but I paid ~$400 including a pair of gloves I couldn't resist and she said the gloves were ~$20.
Actually, maybe I got ripped off. BOC's website says $331 excluding GST as "price per CYL". I hope I wasn't paying some cylinder surcharge. I just wanted a fill. Fine print says:
"Note: All gas prices exclude GST and rental. Surcharges and empty cylinders where applicable will be automatically added at checkout."
VIPR is the same price on the website but 14.8m3.
G is the same price but 8.6m3.
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25th November 2014, 05:55 PM #87Senior Member
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- Mar 2008
- Location
- Australia
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- 141
Don't forget about Stargas. I figured I was better off to start renting for less commitment and less possibility of getting stung for refills if I want to do more in the beginning. The rental is a bit less and the refill prices are a lot less than BOC for same gas 99.995% (who knows what the reality is...).
With a 12 month rental contract, the E cylinder will cost me $247.50 (12months rent @$15.40 + gas refill @$62.70 free next day delivery at least metro). Line ball with Power 10 over the first 2 years if I use half an E per year for $432.30 for the 2 years rent + 1 gas fill. If i turn out in reality to be a lighter user, I can change to a buy/swap. Stargas comes out in front short or long-term if I use more one E per year. On a long-term basis, Power 10 costs less with gas use less than about 1.5 E size/year usage for 10 years.
G is cheaper if use is heavier. G rental a bit more @ $17.32/mth, refill @$92.40.
It's a bit like mobile phone plans, go over your limit and they will sting you.
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29th November 2014, 10:50 PM #88
Total Tools have opened a branch in Mackay.
I am told they are sussing out the swap and go type gas system in the new year. I imagine there will be storage and insurance issues to deal with first.Cylinder purchase was spoken of at around the $300 mark does that around the asking price for E size cylinders.?
Grahame
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29th November 2014, 10:53 PM #89Senior Member
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- May 2007
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- South Australia
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- 135
Sounds more like D pricing
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30th November 2014, 12:56 AM #90Senior Member
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- Mar 2008
- Location
- Australia
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- 141
Power 10
Power 10 deliver nationwide.
http://www.power10gases.com.au/pages...-and-locations
The price for a D size cylinder is initially $335 and when empty you only then pay for the gas which is $100
An E size is $455 initially and $149 for the exchange when empty.
They offered to deliver for $50 metro Brisbane. They are distributing via Total Tools. There is no contract to sign.
I nearly got a Power 10 cylinder from Total Tools, until I got the Stargas prices.
Stargas does free delivery in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Sunshine Coast and Gold Coast areas. Presumably Stargas can also deliver to other places for a fee.....
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