Thread: Arc control with basic stick machines

Honestly

For the job your doing I wouldnt get to fussed about the weld appearance just lay em down........... a good join should be your goal then a quick lick with a five inch so your flush with the base metal and she'll come up a treat! ................

This is all we do at work with this kind a job then a bit of a spray with some gal paint. Granted if you want the welds to show fair enough but it honestly looks better ground flush specially with GAL

Its awesome you want to get the welds right but I think you'll find its a lot a time and effort to get it 'spot on' specially if you decide to grind flush.............

If your really keen to learn go TAFE where you can have a great play around with different settings/techniques under experienced guidance eventually you'll get it just how you like it record outcomes then always have a 'ballpark' to start from.

The great advantage of doing this is that you'll be able to prepare for most of the materials your likely to weld! Saves a lot of time n grief!

Regards LOu

Originally Posted by NewLou

For the job your doing I wouldnt get to fussed about the weld appearance just lay em down........... a good join should be your goal then a quick lick with a five inch so your flush with the base metal and she'll come up a treat!

That would be the pragmatic approach - but personally I hate not getting it right. Also if you're grinding back make sure there's enough weld left behind for strength. For instance if the metal is 1.6mm thick, then you grind the zinc off or don't get full penetration or undercut a bit on the weld, then grind it all flush - you could end up with only half the weld thickness you thought you had. Ok for the chooks but potentially disasterous for heavy duty shelves etc.
Cheers - Mick.

Originally Posted by WelderMick

That would be the pragmatic approach - but personally I hate not getting it right.

This is my problem. I can make it strong enough and do a reasonable job ... but I want it to be perfect, no holes and cosmetically good.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Legion

This is my problem. I can make it strong enough and do a reasonable job ... but I want it to be perfect, no holes and cosmetically good.

Perfect? now that's going to be hard with 1.6mm gal !

Wanna post some pics of how it's going so far?

Cheers

- Mick

I'll try to remember to take some on the weekend. I just tried in the dark but can't get it to focus on the weld. Plus I didn't have time to practice on the weekend do my 10 day old welds out in the weather are getting dirty and rusty.

Got my welder going again today and ran a few test beads to make sure all was well. Had some 1.6mm gal scrap on hand and a camera... so thought of you guys...

1st shot I threw in to illustrate one of my previous posts. Normally I'd tack the diagonal corners, then weld from left to right. When I tack I like to keep the amp down a bit and do a bit of a back and forth action just to make sure I'm bridging the join. I'm using 1.6mm 6012 rods on DCEP.

Same with the second shot, once I'd done the flats, I do the fillets, once again welding left to right trying to tie into the end at the previous bead. Tight fit up helps a lot with the fillets because you gotta use a bit more heat to get into the corner.

third photo- thought I'd throw this one in to show the good and the bad.

I mucked up the weld on the left - twice ! Initially the heat was too low (on 32 amps which I was tacking with), so the flat weld just didn't penetrate well.

Anyway I left it there since I was just buggering about and then did the fillet on the right (turned up to 48 amps which was good). To weld the fillet I slope the rod so the arc is pushing back into the weld (probably at about 45 degrees) and weave from top to corner to bottom. Make sure the weld pool is getting into the corner.

Then I thought I better fix up the left hand weld if I'm going to take a photo of it. So I ground it off and ran another bead. Forgot to turn the welder down, so still at 48 amps, and was running too hot. It was about a millisecond away from a burn through at the end so had to back out quick. I reckon 40 amps would've been perfect for this weld.

This one was a perfect canditate for Lou's suggestion - just grind it flush and be happy with it.

Cheers

- Mick

I have welded much 1.6 galv tube with the basic AC stick machine using 2.5mm rods and yeah it takes a little while to get into the zone and amps just right but get a good result after some cursing and the odd grind back.
That was the most frustrating thing, dealing with those first few welds and getting it all going well and by the time the job was completed it was all going nice and easy. Next time a month or two later, go through it all again....argh!
I bought a little WIA MIG a few years back and ran gassless wire and possibly got a more even weld but it's messy dirty stuff and didn't like it much. I thought that the stick gave a nicer weld actually, but the Mig wire is more convenient.

But I am over that now, I put off and put off renting the bottles for 20 years but last year just did it.
New Inverter MIG and TIG now, two bottles of gas, but good welds from scratch and can weld razor blades and most metals now if and when I want. Puts a smile on my face anyway

I still use the stick for some jobs though, it can still be the best method at times.

I tried a bit of 1.6 gal with stick yesterday - the thinnest rods I had were some 2.5mm Gemini 6012's - on 70A it was *very* hard to maintain an arc until I changed to DCEP which resulted in a much more stable, controllable arc. In other circumstances I've never noticed much difference between DCEN and DCEP, but in this scenario the difference was dramatic.

Originally Posted by RustyArc

I tried a bit of 1.6 gal with stick yesterday - the thinnest rods I had were some 2.5mm Gemini 6012's - on 70A it was *very* hard to maintain an arc until I changed to DCEP which resulted in a much more stable, controllable arc. In other circumstances I've never noticed much difference between DCEN and DCEP, but in this scenario the difference was dramatic.

Mate, I know all welders are different, but I'd put 70A in the 'heroic' category for this size stock. I just went and tried it with exactly the same rods - 60A seemed perfect for me for the fillets (tight arc, no weaving) and 55A on the butts (very tight weave as I had a tiny gap). Only tried DCEP.

I though the 2.5mm rods where generally 'nicer' to weld this material with than the 1.6mm I was using the other day (both Gemini 6012's). The 1.6's are a bit more forgiving (less amps), but also harder to control.

I agree DCEN down at this size is too 'angry'.

Cheers

- Mick

Hey Legion, why can't you run a TIG torch on that welder of yours? Those little inverters can do TIG can't they. Is it the gas issue?

Originally Posted by WelderMick

Mate, I know all welders are different, but I'd put 70A in the 'heroic' category for this size stock.

Hey, I didn't claim my welds were actually nice at 70A

Seeing as I got me a nice new DC clamp meter yesterday, I decided to put it on the welding lead to see what actual amps were being used. On my UniMIG 165 Inverter MIG/Stick machine with the 2.6mm Gemini 6012 on DCEP, with 70A on the dial it measured 64A. A quick check across the other amperages showed that on DCEP, the actual amps were always lower by about 6A across the range, although the gap reducing as it gets up towards 115A.

I decided to do a quick comparison with my little BOC 130A inverter and the first thing that struck me was how different the current behaviour is - while the UniMIG dialled in to 70A puts out a pretty solid 64A no matter what - including with a stuck rod, the BOC goes all over the shop - at 70A it delivers 84A to a stuck rod and eveything inbetween.

So the UniMIG is literally a constant-current machine, whereas the BOC either has looser current regulation, or is doing some kind of anti-stick/arc force/hot start shennanigans.

Anyway, highly off topic - when I get a chance I'll try and do a proper, methodical test and post the results in a new thread.

I'll look forward to your tests Rusty. Very interesting results from the meter. Cheers - Mick

I tried something you aren't supposed to do with 6012 rods - whipping (stole the technique from the 6010 / 6011 "firestick" rods). Start the weld then whip ahead to start the penetration then whip back a bit to fill, spreads the heat out more. I thought I'd get slag inclusions but on thin stuff it worked OK. Gemini 1.6mm 6012 and Proweld 2.0mm 6012

From reading and watching videos on pipeline & low hydrogen welds, I learned some welders start the weld (or should I say strike up an arc) about an inch from the weld start point then drag the rod to the start point, hardly laying anything down along that inch. I've tried this with basic 6012/6013 rods and it seems to reduce the low penetration you get at the beginning. The inch where you dragged just gets welded over and burns out anything that got laid down. The technique seems to get used a lot to avoid porosity at the start of low hydrogen rod welds, lets the rod heat up and gets the protective gasses flowing.