Thread: Help a beginner - stick welding

Originally Posted by mhewitt

One day I can strike and run a decent bead; the next, no arc, contact and stick, contact and stick, contact and stick.

If I have the current turned up high enough that I can reliably strike and arc, I blow holes through the steel.

What thickness is your RHS?

Originally Posted by BobL

What thickness is your RHS?

Typically 1.6mm, I think.

Originally Posted by mhewitt

Typically 1.6mm, I think.

That's tough to do anyway with a basic stick welder so I wouldn't worry about it at this stage..

I'd practice striking welds with 2.5 mm plate first at high currents and then practice - practice - practice to see how low a current you can strike arcs with and maintain a decent bead. Then try butt welding as this is where blowout will be a problem.
Then try it with 2 mm plate and then 1.6 mm plate. It's just practice and I do mean lots of practice. Corners are a special case because the arc is so constrained and the heat has nowhere else to go.

Somewhere I heard it takes 10,000 hours or practice to become expert at something. This maybe a slight exaggeration for arc welding but probably not for full strength all conditions welding.

Even with a nice inverter unit, as mentioned, 1.6mm section with stick - particularly fillet welds - takes a heap of skill & practice. The problem with fillets is that even with close fit-up the open end will take less heat before blowing through than the continuous piece it's up against. That means, ideally, you need to try and put more heat into one side than the other, which is much easier said than done. You also want to be putting down metal right in the root of the join, which again is hard if you've had to move the stick out a bit as you strike and establish the pool - more often than not, the stick will stay too far out with the arc jumping to one side or the other, leading to wormholes where metal is deposited only on one side, with slag left sitting in the root of the join.

My suggestion, apart from the already mentioned practising on less-challenging sections, is to try using an extra bit of thicker scrap positioned before the start of the run to strike off and establish the pool before leading it onto the join. You may need to cut it off afterwards, but it allows you to get things started properly before the critical part of the weld.

2.5mm electrodes are bit big for welding steel than thin, try 2mm electrodes

Ken

Originally Posted by Gringo

2.5mm electrodes are bit big for welding steel than thin, try 2mm electrodes

Ken

Don't know that I'd say that. It wasn't all that long ago that 2mm electrodes weren't seen at all in common use, (although in pre mig days 1.6 and 2mm were more common). There has only been one 2mm electrode that I've ever liked and that was Murex Speedex 12's. 1.6mm is easily weldable with 2.5 E4112 electrodes once you know what you're doing.
Starting off though, you will be pushing the proverbial up hill. When I start newbies off, I use 4mm E4112 or 4113's at around 160A and get then to run beads on 10mm plate. Now you don't have that luxury, but as BobL said, a 2.5 electrode at 100 odd Amps is going to be pretty user friendly, once you get confident, try fillet welds with thickish plate and then work your way up to butt and fillet welds with 1.6mm. Learn electrode manipulation and the effect it has and experiment with arc lengths and amperages. Trying to weld 1.6 first off is the welding equivalent of an L plater jumping in a Ferrari and trying to break the lap record at Bathurst.
Above all else - don't get disheartened, it takes practice. A few photos of your welds would be useful if you should need further advice too.

I am with Gringo on the 2mm rods for RHS, Supercheap has some they are not quality rods but will make a difference.
Also Karl is right about the L-plater thing you most likely won't weld anything as hard as RHS.
Have a search for a Post by Grahame Collins on this subject in Welding, I used his method and was quite happy with the results.
I am not sure how to Post a link for it but it was only a couple of months ago.
Good Luck

It's nice to know I may not be quite as incompetent as I feared. I'll try the various suggestions (including, of course, practice, practice, practice).

Thanks

One thing I neglected to mention was electrode selection. Some of the cheap chinese sourced electrodes produce copious amounts of slag that can be hard to control, particularly at lower amperages or when contamination is encountered. My all time favourite would be the Speedex 12's I mentioned earlier, (these were available in 2mm if so desired - I only use that size for 1.15mm tube personally), or Austarc 12P as second choice due to their greater cost.

I've done something you're not supposed to do with 4112 rods - whipping, but only on thin steel where I'm at risk of burning through. I'm a relative beginner so don't take my methods as gospel, but it did seem to work good for me.

With whipping, once the arc is established and the steel is no longer "cold" I will move the rod a few mm ahead of the weld pool, let it start melting the new metal then bring it back to the main weld pool (this all happens quite quickly), which is still molten but it's had a breif moment to cool a touch. For a given amount of time this is spreading the heat over a larger area. Normally a technique like this with 4112 / 4113 rods could cause slag inclusions but I find with the local concentrated heat on thin stuff, I don't see any evidence of this happening, because the weld pool doesn' t get a chance to cool enough.

I have to agree there is a difference between different brand rods of the same type. It even makes you wonder how two different brands could be considered the same type of rod. Depending on your welder, some rods may run better, stick less, etc.

I found I became a "better welder" when I bought my Unimig 170 DC inverter. I'd only had my Cigweld 140 transformer buzz box until then and wasn't too impressed with my welds a lot of the time. I haven't touched my 330 amp 3 phase mig welder for quite some time now, been too engrosed in my new arc welder. Another benefit of a DC inverter is being able to change polarity. Generally speaking, electrode +ve will give you more penetration (easier to blow through in thin stuff), whereas electrode -ve gives less penetration but more deposition. However, I think this is flux dependant, because myself and others seem to have noted that changing to electrode -ve gave a more agressive arc and blowthrough got worse in some cases.

Another point of note, can you clearly see the weld puddle. I sometimes still find it difficult to determine what is the molten steel weld puddle and what is molten slag, but I'm always trying to look at the weld puddle and ignore the molten slag. It can get tricky - when I do a vertical uphill weld the slag is literally flowing downwards and hanging off in big blobs but when I knock it off there's a reasonable weld underneath. Keep your mask lens very clean, the misty buildup that happens really stops clear visability. The smoke itself can sometimes get in the road so sometimes I have a fan blowing the fumes away from my line of sight.

Look on Youtube for some videos, these have helped me as a beginner (check out ChuckE2009 videos esp. his one on better welding with 6013 rods). I've sat down (without interruptions) with various videos watching the weld puddle and the technique, and after doing that a few times I've went and done a dramatically improved weld from the ones I did before watching the video. One specifically was vertical uphill welding, and while I'm on that one it's a good example of how different electrodes weld differently. My Kobe RB26 rods worked great for me on vertical uphill, whereas with Satincraft 13, I'd be dead if my life depended on doing a good vertical uphill weld, both rods are 6013 yet handle completely different.

Originally Posted by mhewitt

One day I can strike and run a decent bead; the next, no arc, contact and stick, contact and stick, contact and stick.

If I have the current turned up high enough that I can reliably strike and arc, I blow holes through the steel.

It's particularly bad on an internal corner.

Is this just poor technique - unsteady hand - or is there something else I should be looking at?

I agree wholeheartedly with what the other fellows say about practice. I'll add this,Tafe and every other welding trainer does not start beginners on 1.6mm thick stock. Alternately they provide their learners with a set of circumstances that promote the best chances of success.

To be blunt ,you are pushing it uphill to expect a good result from your welding process,electrode diameter and material thickness combination and being a beginner. Please do not take this statement the wrong way, its not meant as as demeaning or insulting, but as an observation based upon experience.

I have taught people to weld for nearly forty years, so hopefully by now, I can understand what beginners go through.
I would go as far as saying an experienced welder will be hard pushed to complete a decent weld using the stated welder, electrodes and 1.6mm box.

I would encourage you to practice on thicker stock ( say 5mm ) for at least 20 to 30 hours. See the pic below. If you can achieve that after a period of practice, you are there!

The basics of arc length control and speed will come with the practice but truly your current welder /type /current output/ is a big limitation.

Arguably the best improvement apart from the practice would likely be gained by
A) - A electric helmet
B) - a small inverter unit

Should you wish to get the best results from welding 1.6mm RHS this is the way to go.

Regards

Grahame

No offense taken... I am, as I said at the beginning, crap - and I know it.

But what I now understand is that I am trying to run before walk...

So long as its strong, that's all I care - I'm not aiming for beautiful.

Here's the sort of thing I do - carry platform for mower:


Close-up of typical weld (after grinding and painting!):


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Very helpful comments - I haven't even started and it has me wondering if I will ever master this (dark) art!? But, I have decided to jump in the deep end and my post elsewhere asks for some tips on the right welder etc. I still find it confusing ARC vs MIG vs TIG - it seems some welders do all 3, some 2 and some only 1 type of welding?

all the best, Sean

Originally Posted by seanlark

Very helpful comments - I haven't even started and it has me wondering if I will ever master this (dark) art!? But, I have decided to jump in the deep end and my post elsewhere asks for some tips on the right welder etc. I still find it confusing ARC vs MIG vs TIG - it seems some welders do all 3, some 2 and some only 1 type of welding?

all the best, Sean

Hi Sean,
It can be a bit bewildering for a new bloke, particularly with many posters saying how good this or that welder is.

If its about selection of a process,you need to look at what you think you are likely to want to weld.material type: steel, sheet or plate

For most DIY types, the humble electrode welder ticks the boxes for versatility.

• Reasonable purchase price
• Cheap to operate
• Consumables are cheap
• Minimal maintenance

Home machines are available in 10 amp and 15 amp inputs and a higher input current will yield a higher output current and it will weld from 1.6mm and upwards to say 10mm thick on upper end machines.The inverters on 15 amps will run to 180 or 200 amps-enough for most DIY applications.

Tig and Mig are both gas shielded so you can calculate cylinder rental and gas purchase into costings as well as as a more expensive consumable rate for the specific consumables.Maintenance is ongoing with regular replacement of bits and pieces for each.

The upside for mig is a quicker weld speed and some migs can weld aluminium.If you were doing car panel repairs mig is a better choice than stick.

Tig will weld sheet too, but at a much slower welding speed and is somewhat like using Oxy acetylene where the heat of the oxy flame heat source is exchanged for an electric one.The filler wire and its manipulation remain essentially the same. Most home Tigs are DC and limited to welding steel and stainless steel.For aluminium you need an AC.DC unit-(read more money) The handskill/co-ordination can be difficult for some.

Combination machines of 2 or 3 processes can be iffy.If i was new I would make sure purchased from a vendor who had the back up to maintain and repair the machine not some cheap ebay machine.

Finally what ever you buy do not buy based on a cheap price,especially from an unknown maker.

Good luck with what ever you decide.

Grahame