Thread: Which mig?

Hi Rappy,

I gave an explanation as to how these machines work, I gave my oppinion on them and I gave an account of my experiences with them. At no time was any reference made to you or your post other than to offer a balanced view. I don't know why this would put a bee in your bonet. My oppinion is mine, it belongs to me and I am entitled to it. Please do not bulldoze me or coerce me to align myself with your view.

We all have a right to express our view without harrasment.

John

Hey John

Sorry but i dont understand the point of you comment about gen y people then? I also at no time wanted you to "align your views with mine" and apologies if i made it sound like i did... I am honestly interested if you've found a chinese made ebay combo machine that is actually any good... Not angry mate and not trying to harrass you in anyway but when you make general generational comments like that it sounds pretty ignorant. Its like me saying all old people/ baby boomers? think they know it all and dont know anything about new technology. Yeah we are young and yes some of us dont zhit from clay but at least some of us are willing to learn...

I understand your opinion and appreciate it, honestly my mentor is an mechatronic engineer/weld tech/metalurgist whos around your age and is just a wealth of information, but find it rare nowdays to find someone older that is genuinely willing to pass on their knowledge. Most of them will say comments like "these bloddy gen x/y kids are f@#$ken useless" and right them off before they can even learn anything. Also if they do pass on their knowledge and you decide you have found a better way or don't agree with them then you are wrong. The dont ask why you don't agree or choose to do it differently, your just wrong....

All good mate from my side and really no offence or harrassment intended.. but read my post again and understand why it seemed like that...

Anyway I'm just here trying to help people too so im sorry.

Cheers

Hi Rappy,

My comment regarding Gen Y was based on the observed characteristic that youth generally lay fault externally rather than inwardly. Gen Y is the current youth hence the connection. In my time it was the impetuous baby boomers but as each generation ages and is replaced by a new generation, characteristics of youth are repeated.

I don't want to create a flame war in regards to products manufactured in China as this takes away from the benefit of such a forum. If people have a bad experience buying on ebay then by all means post about it but to give broad ranging statements could be misleading. In any case, I meant no ill intent to you.

In regards to branding I propose a simpler example as that of cars. Most people drive asian cars because they cannot afford exclusive european brands. Most wealthy people drive exclusive european brands because it defines their existence. What is scary is that this pattern of behaviour was proposed in 1955 by Victor Lebow. This is Victor's quote

"Our enormously productive economy demands that we make consumption our way of life, that we convert the buying and use of goods into rituals, that we seek our spiritual satisfactions, our ego satisfactions, in consumption. The measure of social status, of social acceptance, of prestige, is now to be found in our consumptive patterns. The very meaning and significance of our lives today expressed in consumptive terms. The greater the pressures upon the individual to conform to safe and accepted social standards, the more does he tend to express his aspirations and his individuality in terms of what he wears, drives, eats- his home, his car, his pattern of food serving, his hobbies.
These commodities and services must be offered to the consumer with a special urgency. We require not only “forced draft” consumption, but “expensive” consumption as well. We need things consumed, burned up, worn out, replaced, and discarded at an ever increasing pace. We need to have people eat, drink, dress, ride, live, with ever more complicated and, therefore, constantly more expensive consumption. The home power tools and the whole “do-it-yourself” movement are excellent examples of “expensive” consumption"

All is not as it seems in our world and the marketing gurus know how to push our buttons. Remember, this famous quote was made in 1955, some 55 years later how is it that this quote is the mantra of our day to day lives.


Regards
John

Get the highest duty cycle you can... even though its jut a hobby machine when you inevitably end up doing heavier work it is still frustrating to have to wait while the welder cools down.

Hey John

I honestly couldn't agree more.... but then why dont we promote/suggest people to buy secondhand units more often than buy new machines that will most certainly be filling out dumps in no time. The scariest thing about my generation and the one below me is this "just get another one" attitude. If something broken dont bother trying to fix it just get another one and honestly third world countries make this viable. If we had to buy a european, us, aus. made product we couldnt afford to just constantly replace items and it would be viable to have them repaired.... But every service tech I know wont touch cheap chinese/italian welders because buy the time they have taken the case off its a right off...
Also I think that if everyone buy third world products especially in welders and it finally pushes out the major long standing manufacturers in the end we lose because there is no further development, just copies of machines that were made 50 years ago. Technology advancements are not generally made by third world companies....but since the major manufacturers have now nearly all moved off shore the gap between "quality" european and "cheap" third world products is closing up.... Have seen some pretty impressive products coming from china (ie the jasic 200 ac/dc) and think they appear to get better everyday.....

The future looks grim but cheap...

Appreciate your thoughts

Thanks mate

Hi Rappy,

Consumer law in Australia currently mandates spare parts be kept for 5 years from the time a product is discontinued. Many outdated products do not have parts available and the cost in time and alternative parts to produce workaround options to revive old equipment makes them uneconomical to keep going. Coupled to this, many people do not have an understanding of how things work so are put into a position to replace rather than repair. In a society focused on cost, it is cheaper to throw out and replace. If however our society put a cost onto the environment instead, then it would be cheaper to repair as disposal into the environment would be too expensive.

Interesting little movie here, the story of stuff.

In regards to the service techs, I agree but I believe this relates to all welders and I stress it must relate to original purchase price. A $400 repair fee for a $600 welder is considered a write off but the same repair on a $1500 machine would be economical. It's a bit like blowing an engine in a 2003 Hyundai excel and blowing an engine in a 2003 BMW. You can fix them both but it would not be economically viable to reinstate the Hyundai. This does trigger a thought, if the techs aren't fixing the Chinese / Italian welders there must be a lot of faulty name brand machines keeping them busy .

As to third world manufacturing, first I will clear something up.

Terms such as third world are obsolete and were used during the cold war. First world countries were allies to the USA, mostly NATO countries that were democratic and capitalist based. Second world countries were typically industrialised communist countries, these were the enemy states. Third world countries were under developed, not aligned with anyone and up for grabs in the war of ideology. Since this time these meanings have come to represent the types of governments, health systems, education systems, mortality rates etc.

China for example is now over 75% developed and capitalism is rampant. China although not yet classed in the same league as developed western nations is actually not far away. There are more scientists holding PHD's in China than in the USA. Exports from China contribute to less than 25% of it's GDP. The bulk of China's manufacturing is to service it's own internal demand created by 1200+ million people.
Do a google search for property in Shanghai. A city of over 20 million and you would be lucky to find a single bedroom "Melbourne Style" apartment to rent for under $600 AUD per week.

Most of the welders you can purchase at a welding store are manufactured in China. The brand names are just names, they do not manufacture locally anymore. BOC, CIG, Thermadyne, Unimig, Migomag, WIA etc etc all sell Chinese made welders. Not all of their stuff is Chinese but it is there. Most electronics are manufactured in China, even all of apple's products. Yes, the Iphone 4 is made in China (PRC)

Beware the golden dragon, they have gone from the 1800's to 21st century in under 50 years. Start learning Mandarin, it will be the language of necessity when we are put to work in the factories of our Chinese bosses sometime in 2035.

John (hope you liked this one although a bit off track)

Hey john

Yes i believe we have got a little side tracked........

Interesting theory about the service techs but not sure that one true is mate....hahaha....good point though. Most of the service tech have alliance/contracts with the major manufacturers for warranty work. The warranty work on a chinese machine consists of plugging it in to see if it works. If it doesnt and it is still under warranty, then its replaced. Note that you dont then get another 1-3 years from that date with the warranty though, even though its been replaced with a brand new machine??

Service techs are few and far between and have enough work fixing/servicing brand names not to bother with cheap machines,not because the break down often just because of the shear number out their. I understand that purchase price dictates the viable cost of a repair but the parts prices do not. If you pay for a hyundai then the motor price of a hyundai is a percentage of the original cost....lets say 30%? Same with a holden, BMW, audi etc although the percentage may vary a little.... The thing that dicates whether its viable is labour....If we import some people to work for 3 dollars a day, now even chinese machines become viable to repair...but australian laws dont permit this....bugger. lol. Also a repair may be half the cost of the original machine but your service tech may say "mate if it goes again you'll throw it out so dont bother repairing" but on a brand name machine there is less chance of that happening and there is warranty on the replaced part. I understand what your saying but brand name machines have a high % chance of being able to be repair and give you another 10+ years of use. Chinese machines have very little chance of being repaired, parts arent readily available, and could blow something else making it a waste of time... just in my experience... Brand name chinese machines are exempt form this though, although they are usually still not repaired just replaced...

I suggest if you have the skills, become a service tech...they get paid well and take forever to get anything repaired. I have so much continual work for a good service tech.... just hard to find a good one.

The use of "third world" was for lack of a better word...They are still considered as third world though for sanitation etc... Thanks though didnt know it was a cold war term...

As for me learning mandarin.....not happening...too many dialects (over 20 i think) and even then theres over 250 languages spoken throughout china.....hahah what a nightmare!!

Cheers mate always interesting to hear what you have to say....even if its way off the actually subject....

Hi Guys,

I have enjoyed this thread, it is intersting to understand people's perspectives, their thoughts and feelings in regards to the majic of melting metal with electricity. A subject close to my heart.

I would like to offer my thoughts in relation to the ongoing service of welding machines manufactured in the PRC. As an independant Australian brand, a brand that has established itself in Australia for many years now, the challenge of being the small guy was always to prove our designs in this market against well known brands. Whilst the internet provides opportunity to market and sell directly to the consumer without engaging in the expensive excercise of dealer networks, it also acts as a grape vine. By this I mean if you cock up, people talk about it and the word gets out.

Our business model was from the outset to establish a reputable brand and thus the management of warranty work and post warranty work was critical to the model. Our service centre is in house, our trained staff repair our welders and others also. It is important to understand that all welders are easily repairable and a qualified technician will very quickly diagnose the fault. We have digital scopes, thermal infra red imaging equipment, load banks etc etc which are used to diagnose faults quickly. Our statistics have shown that repairs are completed within 3 hours worst case and this figure includes testing. We turn around all repairs within 7 to 14 days. We have serviced many "ebay specials" over the years and I do know which ebay sellers are shonks. I can't name them publicly but learn to read the warning signs.... No phone or mobile phone = Warning Bells. No address or just a PO Box = Warning Bells. Always ring a seller and ask a tonne of technical questions, you will quickly sort out the genuine supplier over the container dumper.

I will further introduce something that has not been mentioned. Chinese inverter machines predominantly use discrete electronics which means you can purchase and replace parts easily, i.e the components are soldered onto a fibre glass PCB. The "expensive" well known European name brand machines use SMD, surface mount devices. SMD electronics require specialist equipment to remove and reflow components so in a nutshell, you buy a board and replace it.

After many many years of selling in Australia, many thousands of satisfied customers, 100% feedback on ebay, only positive commentary on hundreds of forums and websites, I am proud to be involved with Tokentools. I hope our business model and customer focus helps up and coming competitors establish Chinese manufactured products as viable alternatives for those on a budget.

Regards
Pete (Tokentools)

I must say 100% feedback on over 3000 sales is pretty good

If i was to consider a chinese machine it would definitely be a token but logic says to go for a proven brand

Originally Posted by mac_man_luke

I must say 100% feedback on over 3000 sales is pretty good

If I was to consider a chinese machine it would definitely be a token but logic says to go for a proven brand

It just prompts me to ask the question, how long does one have to be successfully supplying and servicing their goods before one would regard it as a proven brand?

I haven't bought anything from TT yet but from what I see and hear, I would consider that they have proven themselves to be a good supplier of gear, and have possibly earnt the title of "proven brand" within the scope of their business model and online shopping which many embrace nowdays.

Well I guess that one shouldn't be too concerned these days about where any brand is built, as it appears that most are using cheaper labour OS and particularly in China. The big brands too and there are worse places to be manufacturing.
I would presume that most of us on here have plenty of MIC appliances and other things around the home doing a reliable job.

I am actually having difficulty at present with one of the "big brand" reps getting back to me with my enquiries and I am sure that they have forgotten what customer service is about. I am seriously concerned that if this is what their sales service is like what would their after sales service side of things be like? A bit dissappointing so far.

I was also inside a service agents repair work shop recently and it was stacked wall to wall to ceiling with big brand machines, I asked if they were all for repair but was told only some are and most of them are written off as not economical to repair and just there for parts, some needed to be dumped. So they are not all bullet proof as they are often made out.
They service and sell their own MIC brand as well as many big names and state that the MIC units are relatively easy and much cheaper to repair. The service Tech stated he would have no hesitation in recommending a MIC machine, with European brands costing often over 5 times higher for parts alone.

When I buy my new MIG, (still undecided) I will make my decision based on firstly a machine that best suits my needs as to what I will do with it and I will buy the best quality and features I can afford.
I will also get something with a bit more capacity than I think I need as a bit of headroom will result in less stress on the machine and should result in less service issues.
I will look at the general cost of service and availability of parts and therefore will buy from a supplier who has service staff and facilities and some customer service track record.
I will also take advice from members of forums such as this with their experience and knowlege.

So all this I know adds $ to the machine but I think well worth the extra for that little peace of mind whether spending $1000 or over $10,000.

Originally Posted by inverter_weld

Hi Guys,

After many many years of selling in Australia, many thousands of satisfied customers, 100% feedback on ebay, only positive commentary on hundreds of forums and websites, I am proud to be involved with Tokentools. I hope our business model and customer focus helps up and coming competitors establish Chinese manufactured products as viable alternatives for those on a budget.

Regards
Pete (Tokentools)

Hello Peter, I've been following your web site for years just to see what you're up to. I thought you lived in the Blue Mountains, as I once did.

The Chinese manufacturing question is a difficult one. I'm in the building industry and I can tell you that the day of GMC (I know, they're defunct) and similar brands are pretty well over, with everyone returning to Makita, Hitachi, De Walt and Metabo.

But with some machinery it seems to be different. We all know that the Chinese are smart, and if they wanted to they could manufacture anything to a high standard. But they've been working to a price demanded by, well, people like you. So, my question to you is, do you have much communication with the manufacturers about problems their machines might have? I get the feeling that one of the reasons that you are gradually gaining a good reputation is that, because you're an electrician, you can identify problems in detail, and pass this info on to the manufacturers.

For those that might see this question as a "Dorothy Dix", I can assure you that I have no connection with TT, and I tend to avoid most Chinese tools these day.

Hi DrSED,

The business was relocated to the Central Coast at the end of 2006 and as a result I left the mountain life behind. It got irritating only being able to drive East or West along the ridge.

In regards to manufacture, we design and spec the product according to our needs. Where the price is factored in is in the viability of bringing the product to market. Production costs, importation costs, fixed costs and variable costs are applied against the minimum sell price to determine if bringing a product to market is beneficial to us whilst minimising futre costs such as warranty work.

For example we use twistlock stick holders and 300 amp earth clamps. You will see many other welders sold with crocodile clamps for stick holders and 100 amp jumper lead clamps for their earth. Another example is we use fire retardent canvas sheathing on our TIG and plasma torches whilst others use a plastic hose (which burns). Further our Plasma torches are AG60 heavy duty whilst others use the cheaper PT31.


The internals of the machines are no different. We have been pushing the market (at the lower end price line) for many years in regards to IGBT and now many are following this path. IGBT cost more than MOSFET to manufacture but are far more reliable. On the other hand, MOSFET are easier to repair.

I believe our customers will agree they always get the best value for money.

As to factory feedback, we are always in communiction with the factory. It is important to note our machines are an evolution of previous designs so changes are small each time ensuring spare parts follow a lineage. For example our TTMIG200 has had an integrated LIFT ARC TIG welder added in the last evolution. The lift arc tig component has been used on our Miniarc 142ST for 18 months so adding it to the MIG was a progressive step and any potential issues have been mitigated as we are adding known functionality a building block at a time.

Whilst being a sparky has helped I am now completing a Bachelor of Science with a major in Physics, I have an idea that will change welding but the development will be fully Australian, .

Regards
Pete