Thread: New Mig Welder

Someone that would know for sure is Pete at Token Tools. I believe he is an electrical engineer with a background as a sparky. A very helpful chap indeed when I spoke with him.
Grahame

As far as I know, the UniMIG combo machines (MIG and Stick) are all inverter machines, and have a detachable MIG connection. They tend to start at about $900 new. There is a cheap UniMIG MIG machine, but it doesn't do stick, and the MIG lead is permanently built into the machine - I'm pretty sure it's a transformer unit too.

An inverter machine should do better running off a generator, as they're designed to tolerate a wide range of input voltages, which is why you can run an inverter off a long extension lead without any problems. As for how big a genny, I've posted previously that I was (just) able to run a stick inverter off a cheap 2kVA genny at 90A, so I'd expect a 3.8kVA would be more capable, but unlikely up to the maximum capability of the welder. Probably falls into the not recommended, but entirely possible category.

Thanks Grahame. After a bit of thought, some discussion with SWMBO and some surfing I am leaning towards waiting, and getting a Tokentools 210A multi process welder. Seems to tick all the buttons and of course has a 5 year warranty. It is priced at $899. As it will be mostly used for farm type stuff, the farm will pay for it, sort of. We don't make any money from the property so just consider it another expense. Still have to wait til we have some money tho.

Any other suggestions for the same sort of money?

Dean

ps While surfing I found Stainless Steel Gasless MIG Wire 0 9mm X 0 9 KG 316 Made IN USA | eBay

My first question, as always, is do you really need a mig?
Farm work is often best handled by a good stick welder, particularly if welding outside, as suggested by wanting to run off a generator.
Multi process welders are not really what I call portable when compared to a neat little inverter stick and stick is miles ahead when dealing with dirty or rusty materials. Similar money spent on a stick inverter would buy a top line unit.
As far as running from a gennie. How good is your gennie? All gennies were not created equal.

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

My first question, as always, is do you really need a mig?
Farm work is often best handled by a good stick welder, particularly if welding outside, as suggested by wanting to run off a generator.
Multi process welders are not really what I call portable when compared to a neat little inverter stick and stick is miles ahead when dealing with dirty or rusty materials. Similar money spent on a stick inverter would buy a top line unit.
As far as running from a gennie. How good is your gennie? All gennies were not created equal.

Do I need a mig? I already have one but not inverter and not very good. It is a Sip style 120A. The welder I am looking at is a replacement. Yes I have need of a mig. Don't be fooled into thinking that because I am using it on a farm that all my work is agricultural.

The use of it on a generator would only be a very small percentage of the whole. I need to repair and improve my cattle crush. That is the only outside repair I can think of at the moment but as it is necessary for our safety when handling cattle it is important to me. That is about the only weldable bit od steel on the property outside the house sheds area except gates and they can be removed for repair. Virtually all of the work for this welder will be in my shed.

Portability is not all that much of a concern. I have trailers, even one for the ride on mower and quad bike when I get it going and 2, 4WD utes. The unit I am looking at is 26kg. Not a big issue.

Similar money spent on an inverter stick welder, whilst being appealing would not get me a mig welder which is what this thread is about. The repairs I want to make on the cattle crush all involve clean galv steel as far as I can remember. This would be cleaned off first and if there is any rust involved somewhere this would be cleaned off as well. I do intend to try my stick welder on the genny when I get time. It is heavy and awkward to move. Maybe this would be a good time to refit and improve the handle that got badly bent when the lathe fell over.

How good is my gennie? Guess I would have to try it and see. I was actually looking for specific suggestions on what is recommended and what is not.

While surfing I noticed some of the welder descriptions quoted generator sizes to run the welder. One gave a certain size as required for use of the welder at maximum power. These were biggish welders and they quoted genny sizes much bigger than mine. I guess that in terms of whether a welder could be run off the gennie would be a matter of trying it to see if it welds ok and that the gennie does not disappear in a big puff of smoke. I am not about to spend thousands of dollars on a gennie for one repair.

Dean

Originally Posted by RustyArc

As far as I know, the UniMIG combo machines (MIG and Stick) are all inverter machines, and have a detachable MIG connection. They tend to start at about $900 new. There is a cheap UniMIG MIG machine, but it doesn't do stick, and the MIG lead is permanently built into the machine - I'm pretty sure it's a transformer unit too.

An inverter machine should do better running off a generator, as they're designed to tolerate a wide range of input voltages, which is why you can run an inverter off a long extension lead without any problems. As for how big a genny, I've posted previously that I was (just) able to run a stick inverter off a cheap 2kVA genny at 90A, so I'd expect a 3.8kVA would be more capable, but unlikely up to the maximum capability of the welder. Probably falls into the not recommended, but entirely possible category.

Thanks Rusty. The ones I was looking at would have been non inverter then. I am not going to buy another mig with built in lead. I will look at the better unimigs. Unfortunately I am located where it is pretty impossible to try specific welders. I will almost certainly have to have the unit delivered to me.

My generator is 3800W which is slightly bigger than 3.8kVA I believe. This puts it at just about double the size of the 2kVA. This seems to put it in the region of the amps required to do the job I want to do from the genny.

Probably falls into the not recommended, but entirely possible category.

That would sum it up pretty well I think. I can live with that.

Dean

Originally Posted by Oldneweng

My generator is 3800W which is slightly bigger than 3.8kVA I believe. This puts it at just about double the size of the 2kVA.

Not wanting to go splitting hairs, but I will

There's no such thing as a 3,800W generator - all generators are rated in kVA. How many watts you can actually use depends on the power factor of the device connected to it. In that respect, it might be worth checking the power factors of the welders you're considering - the closer to 1, the more amps you'll be able to run.

Finally, with respect to portability, I often sling my UniMIG 165 and CO2 gas bottle onto the ute. While it's no where near as light and portable as the Smootharc, it's still quite practical, and I then have the option of using MIG or stick as needed. On thick sections, I often find it easier to build up multiple passes with the MIG as there's no chipping of slag required between runs. Also, with CO2 gas, the fierce arc makes a pretty good job of blasting through paint and rust.

That's fair enough, many people don't have an accurate assessment of their real needs and choose migs for the wrong reasons.
My thoughts on the multi process machines are to choose one that takes a decent spool of wire, preferably the full size 15Kg rolls. Pick one that has a range of feed rollers available, both size and type, (v groove, U groove and knurled). Obviously anything decent will come with a Euro connection for the gun. Are you going to run gas or gasless wire?
I have run a mig from a gennie on a couple of occasions and my gut feeling is that your 3.8Kva will not be up to the task. Does your gennie have a volt meter on it? If so, get a suitable assistant to watch the volt meter while you weld away and see if the voltage holds up.
One comment that applies to most inverters. They are less repairable than transformer welders, (particularly cheapies). That is a very big statement I realise, but inverters reach a point of not being viable to repair in many cases where an old transformer welder is somewhat like grandfathers axe. Just something to be aware of, inverters are here to stay no doubt.
The little Lincolns get a pretty good rap from many people so maybe worth a look. If it were me in this position, I would talk to a welder repairer and ask what the various machines were like internally. I am often surprised by what my repairer has to say about some name brand machines when viewed internally. Cost is not always the defining factor.

Originally Posted by RustyArc

Not wanting to go splitting hairs, but I will

There's no such thing as a 3,800W generator - all generators are rated in kVA. How many watts you can actually use depends on the power factor of the device connected to it. In that respect, it might be worth checking the power factors of the welders you're considering - the closer to 1, the more amps you'll be able to run.

Finally, with respect to portability, I often sling my UniMIG 165 and CO2 gas bottle onto the ute. While it's no where near as light and portable as the Smootharc, it's still quite practical, and I then have the option of using MIG or stick as needed. On thick sections, I often find it easier to build up multiple passes with the MIG as there's no chipping of slag required between runs. Also, with CO2 gas, the fierce arc makes a pretty good job of blasting through paint and rust.

There's no such thing as a 3,800W generator - all generators are rated in kVA.

Mine is! Its printed in big letters across the sides of the fuel tank.

I hope that the power factor is quoted in the manual. I don't recall seeing it mentioned yet.

Dean

I'm guessing your gennie is of the chinese persuasion. Rating the gennie in watts is a marketing tool more than anything, 3800 sounds and looks more impressive than 3.8 which is what your gennie would be if expressed in the normal manner. Have a look at the fine print in the manual as 3800W may well be a peak figure and the continuous rating may be nearly 25% less.
I recently had a play with a chinese gennie that proudly proclaimed 8000W, read further on and the continuous rating was 6300W.
Sounds like running your mig from a gennie is more the icing on the cake than anything and you will be wanting thew new welder whether you run it from a gennie or not.
In broad terms all multi process inverters will need the same input power to perform. A quick check of the specs for a Cigweld 175i reveals that the recommended gennie is 9kVa to achieve maximum current of 175A, therefore a 4.5kVa should provide around half of that. Not very impressive eh.

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

I'm guessing your gennie is of the chinese persuasion. Rating the gennie in watts is a marketing tool more than anything, 3800 sounds and looks more impressive than 3.8 which is what your gennie would be if expressed in the normal manner. Have a look at the fine print in the manual as 3800W may well be a peak figure and the continuous rating may be nearly 25% less.
I recently had a play with a chinese gennie that proudly proclaimed 8000W, read further on and the continuous rating was 6300W.
Sounds like running your mig from a gennie is more the icing on the cake than anything and you will be wanting thew new welder whether you run it from a gennie or not.
In broad terms all multi process inverters will need the same input power to perform. A quick check of the specs for a Cigweld 175i reveals that the recommended gennie is 9kVa to achieve maximum current of 175A, therefore a 4.5kVa should provide around half of that. Not very impressive eh.

I will have a look in the manual when I can put my hands on it LOL.

You are right about the icing on the cake. I did not even think about welding when we got the genny. Drilling, angle grinding and crutching/cleaning up sheep were more in mind. My current welder was only a temp one until we can afford a better unit, so I was reminded by SWMBO. How many guys have a partner like that hey? Mind you she wants fences, gates and yards built. We only paid $400 for the genny so either way it is a bargain. Runs great and starts real quick. Electric start.

Impressive or not there is nothing I can do about it. A 9kVA gen set is vastly out of reach, way oversize for anything but welding and will be less than portable. It would probably need its own trailer. I am glad I have one now and will happily accept what it will do. I want to buy a new arc welder at some time as well. The one I have cost $150 second hand years ago. It has performed well for what it is but I would like to have a bit more power than 130A and an inverter style. It came with brand new leads made up for free at the previous owners work. It has extra long 35mm² leads and a 400A earth clamp. Also a proper CIG handle. If I can get both in one unit then that will be great, and I will have a Tig if I ever have need of it.

In a previous post I said

Maybe this would be a good time to refit and improve the handle that got badly bent when the lathe fell over.

Guess what I did today? Straightened the handle out, cut the remaining threaded end off and refitted it about 20cm longer so it will be at a better height to wheel around. I was going to use it to weld weldmesh on to a gate which needed the angle grinder and gen set to remove from existing location. It started raining so I gave up for the day.

Dean

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

That's fair enough, many people don't have an accurate assessment of their real needs and choose migs for the wrong reasons.
My thoughts on the multi process machines are to choose one that takes a decent spool of wire, preferably the full size 15Kg rolls. Pick one that has a range of feed rollers available, both size and type, (v groove, U groove and knurled). Obviously anything decent will come with a Euro connection for the gun. Are you going to run gas or gasless wire?
I have run a mig from a gennie on a couple of occasions and my gut feeling is that your 3.8Kva will not be up to the task. Does your gennie have a volt meter on it? If so, get a suitable assistant to watch the volt meter while you weld away and see if the voltage holds up.
One comment that applies to most inverters. They are less repairable than transformer welders, (particularly cheapies). That is a very big statement I realise, but inverters reach a point of not being viable to repair in many cases where an old transformer welder is somewhat like grandfathers axe. Just something to be aware of, inverters are here to stay no doubt.
The little Lincolns get a pretty good rap from many people so maybe worth a look. If it were me in this position, I would talk to a welder repairer and ask what the various machines were like internally. I am often surprised by what my repairer has to say about some name brand machines when viewed internally. Cost is not always the defining factor.

I am currently running gasless wire because I cannot justify the cost of a cylinder and gas. Also better for outside work. The welder I am looking at does not take 15kg rolls but does have all the rest of your suggestions.

It does not have a volt meter but I have several multimeters and I can connect one to the other gpo. That is a good idea. I will give it a try. Pretty hard to talk to a repairer where I am. I am not aware of any that I would trust in this area. The place I bought my mig from is allegedly a repairer but as they could not diagnose a kinked liner in a new fixed cable mig welder and I had to find it myself after they had tried to fix it, I am not about to rely on them. I am aware of the issue with longevity. I will probably keep both my other welders anyway. Not really worth selling for me in my location.

We do have a shop that stocks Lincolns and I will have a look at them before deciding.

Dean

A welder that is light and somewhat portable, and one that takes 15Kg spools is not the same welder. My UniMIG 165 weighs a bit over 20kg - I'm guessing as I can sling it into the ute tray with one hand, just. Upsize the wire spool from 5kg to 15kg and it gets a *lot* harder. The CO2 cylinder when full is close to 20kg too. This, to me, is a reasonably portable setup. Last week I was welding some SHS and cattle railing on the end of 40m of extension lead, and moving the welder and bottle around was entirely feasible.

As I mentioned, I was able to strike a 2.6mm rod at 90A using a POS Chinese 2kVA welder. I'd assume a 3.8kVA should be able to do a fair bit more than that, so I think it may be able to run an inverter MIG with 0.8 wire reasonably well.

To clarify the kVA thing, *all* generators of any kind, including the transformers that supply your home, are rated in kVA. The actual watts you can get out of it depend on the power factor of the load, the relationship being Watts = kVA x PF. For example, if you were running incandescent globes of a 3.8kVA genny, they have a PF of 1 (unity) so you could run 3,800W of those lights off that generator. By contrast, if you were using poor-quality compact fluorescent bulbs with a PF of 0.6, you could only run 2,280W worth of them.

In short, if you want the best chance of successfully running a welder off a genny, look for one that quotes a power factor close to 1, or features power factor correction (PFC).

Originally Posted by RustyArc

A welder that is light and somewhat portable, and one that takes 15Kg spools is not the same welder. My UniMIG 165 weighs a bit over 20kg - I'm guessing as I can sling it into the ute tray with one hand, just. Upsize the wire spool from 5kg to 15kg and it gets a *lot* harder. The CO2 cylinder when full is close to 20kg too. This, to me, is a reasonably portable setup. Last week I was welding some SHS and cattle railing on the end of 40m of extension lead, and moving the welder and bottle around was entirely feasible.
Not always. A migomag 220MP weighs 19Kg and takes 15Kg spools. Bearing in mind the plan to use gasless wire outside, (I think I'd prefer to stick weld myself), meaning no gas cylinder and we just became very portable. 15Kg ability opens many doors and the wire is a lot cheaper usually. Make sure you get a welder with a polarity change capability if running gasless wire.

As I mentioned, I was able to strike a 2.6mm rod at 90A using a POS Chinese 2kVA welder. I'd assume a 3.8kVA should be able to do a fair bit more than that, so I think it may be able to run an inverter MIG with 0.8 wire reasonably well.

I would be interested to have run a clamp meter on the leads to see what actual volts and amps were delivered. Not saying you didn't run a weld, but my gut feeling tells me that 2kVa wouldn't punch that hard. Assuming a pretty much standard 25V arc voltage, then 90A would equate to 2250W of energy.

Just as a thought. Does this 3800W gennie have 10 or 15A outlets? Fairly certain that all multi process machines will have 15A plugs.
I'll leave it up to the individual imaginations how to overcome that one.
Many of the chinese gennies supply really crappy quality power in my experience. I tried to run an electronic battery charger off a Scorpion brand gennie once and the the battery charger most emphatically raised two fingers in my direction.
Be interesting to see how this one pans out.