Thread: MIG wire confusion

My machine didn't come with a serrated roller, just a reversible 0.8/0.9mm roller. Fed gasless wire and now solid wire no problems. Provided the wire feeds OK (there's a post here somewhere on how to check) I wouldn't worry about getting a special roller.

Rusty,

Thanks for the tip on the roller, I'll take that onboard!

I'm considering going with gas on the mig just to see how it goes!

Can you recommend a wire type and gas type, as usual I'll be welding Duragal RHS 40x40x2.0 and Duragal RHS 20x20x1.6 for most (if not all) of my projects!

I may be wrong about this but in another thread I thought I saw where you metioned something to the effect 'best welding video I've ever seen'.

If that was you, would you mind sharing the name of the video.

Any thoughts on the 'gasless' wire verses the 'flux core' wire?

Thanks for all your help, this thread and others!

It sounds like you already have some gasless wire in the machine, why not have a go with that? Post pics here if you're having problems - there's plenty of experts here who can probably diagnose your problems.

As for gas and wire, I use CO2 and generic 0.8mm wire, although "MIG gas" - an Argon/CO2 mix is more common, but a little more expensive due to bottle rental fees.

That welding video I mentioned is probably the one made by this crowd:
Instructional Welding Videos

It features a man with a funny hat and moustache - not sure where I came across the video in the first place, but it's professionally written and produced, making it a *far* better video than the rambling wobblecam efforts you see on Youtube.

The post you need to look at to set feed tension is this one https://www.woodworkforums.com/f160/w...ed-help-70597/ .

Look at post number 4 from Grahame Collins.

I use gasless wire and have always used a serrated wheel as my welder came with one and a very small reel of wire. I also was looking at the same site some days ago and noticed the same issue. I started looking at Bobs Ebay store first then went to his main site. I cannot answer your question. A lot of the terminology used on these websites is pinched direct from the suppliers. This may be the reason for the difference.

I would think they are the same but I would not take it for granted. There is an aluminium wire with flux but it still needs gas. Can you search on the brands and see if there is more information available. I will shortly be in the market for a new roll of gasless wire. Like Rusty says, if the current roller works stick with it.

Dean

Dean,

Thanks for the tip on the thread regarding wire tension. I thought it was so good that I added it to my 'Favorites'.

I've owned the welder for over ten years, although it hasn't had a lot of use it is probably due for a new liner because I'm guessing it has had some rusty wire going through it. I've probably only bought three wire reels in over ten years and the reels always sets in the welder!

I guess I need to do some research on liners now!!!

Gasless wire is a flux cored wire designed to be used without gas, while flux core wire is a wire designed to be used with the addition of a shielding gas, typically CO2 but sometimes Argon mix. The advantage of the flux core process is that it can produce a higher deposition rate than solid wire mig while retaining excellent out of position qualities, along with other advantages relating to mechanical properties.
Gasless wire is probably the worst incarnation of the mig welding process in my opinion but does have a cost advantage if you do such small amounts of welding that you cannot justify the purchase of gas.
Honestly, flux cored wire, (not gasless), is something that the home user is better to steer clear of as it really comes into its own at high amperages for heavy work.

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

Gasless wire is a flux cored wire designed to be used without gas, while flux core wire is a wire designed to be used with the addition of a shielding gas, typically CO2 but sometimes Argon mix. The advantage of the flux core process is that it can produce a higher deposition rate than solid wire mig while retaining excellent out of position qualities, along with other advantages relating to mechanical properties.
Gasless wire is probably the worst incarnation of the mig welding process in my opinion but does have a cost advantage if you do such small amounts of welding that you cannot justify the purchase of gas.
Honestly, flux cored wire, (not gasless), is something that the home user is better to steer clear of as it really comes into its own at high amperages for heavy work.

Karl,

Thanks for the clarification on the gassless verses flux core. I'm on the gas/no-gas fence and you input is very helpful!!

Originally Posted by twebb01

Karl,

Thanks for the clarification on the gassless verses flux core. I'm on the gas/no-gas fence and you input is very helpful!!

I know that many will disagree with me, but I really do believe that if gasless wire, (at least in the sizes used by home use machines - .8 or .9mm) really is the pits.
I have used it and found it to be very fumey, shallow in penetration and overall not pleasant, (I once described it as a cellulose electrode on a roll).
My personal preference is for either a stick welder, probably a DC inverter or to go the whole hog and use a mig with CO2, which I actually prefer as a shielding gas to the argon mixes for general steel work. CO2 will outperform argon mix whenever there is dirt or galvanising involved and produces a superior penetration profile in the weld. Many will say that CO2 is too spattery, but I have not found this to be the case if set up correctly. There is one big advantage to the spatter produced by CO2 in that it typically is able to be removed by a quick swipe with a cold chisel where I have found that argon mix spatter sticks far more tenaciouisly. Likewise, many say that CO2 is no good for thin sheet metal such as car body panels, I have had no problems doing this work with CO2, (admittedly I have generally been using above average welders). When welding at certification level I have also found that CO2 is less prone to gas pores in the root run than argon mix - obviously this will not be a factor for your application.
Many on this forum seem to be buying their own CO2 cylinder and getting it refilled with good results so that may be an option for you.
If you can, go for the gas, you will not be sorry that you did.
The best piece of advice I can give you is no matter what the process is, learn to set it up correctly, learn to set you wire feed correctly for the voltage set, the charts provided with welders are only a very rough guide. Too often I find people welding with insufficient wire feed believing it gives deeper penetration - it does not and actually harms the finished weld. Secondly always weld at the highest power that you and the material can handle, you will work much faster and will experience less distortion. Thirdly do not try to lay too much weld in one pass, better to do two or three passes as cold lap is easily produced with a mig trying to over weld, your wire must be at the leading edge of the puddle at all times, (unless filling a crater).
Many belive that migs are "point and pull", requiring less skill to use than a stick welder, they are not. The skill in stick welding is the manipulation and choice of electrode, for a mig it is primarily in the setup of the machine before welding.
Best of luck.

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

I know that many will disagree with me, but I really do believe that if gasless wire, (at least in the sizes used by home use machines - .8 or .9mm) really is the pits.
I have used it and found it to be very fumey, shallow in penetration and overall not pleasant, (I once described it as a cellulose electrode on a roll).
My personal preference is for either a stick welder, probably a DC inverter or to go the whole hog and use a mig with CO2, which I actually prefer as a shielding gas to the argon mixes for general steel work. CO2 will outperform argon mix whenever there is dirt or galvanising involved and produces a superior penetration profile in the weld. Many will say that CO2 is too spattery, but I have not found this to be the case if set up correctly. There is one big advantage to the spatter produced by CO2 in that it typically is able to be removed by a quick swipe with a cold chisel where I have found that argon mix spatter sticks far more tenaciouisly. Likewise, many say that CO2 is no good for thin sheet metal such as car body panels, I have had no problems doing this work with CO2, (admittedly I have generally been using above average welders). When welding at certification level I have also found that CO2 is less prone to gas pores in the root run than argon mix - obviously this will not be a factor for your application.
Many on this forum seem to be buying their own CO2 cylinder and getting it refilled with good results so that may be an option for you.
If you can, go for the gas, you will not be sorry that you did.
The best piece of advice I can give you is no matter what the process is, learn to set it up correctly, learn to set you wire feed correctly for the voltage set, the charts provided with welders are only a very rough guide. Too often I find people welding with insufficient wire feed believing it gives deeper penetration - it does not and actually harms the finished weld. Secondly always weld at the highest power that you and the material can handle, you will work much faster and will experience less distortion. Thirdly do not try to lay too much weld in one pass, better to do two or three passes as cold lap is easily produced with a mig trying to over weld, your wire must be at the leading edge of the puddle at all times, (unless filling a crater).
Many belive that migs are "point and pull", requiring less skill to use than a stick welder, they are not. The skill in stick welding is the manipulation and choice of electrode, for a mig it is primarily in the setup of the machine before welding.
Best of luck.

Karl,

I just want to address you last statement "The skill in stick welding is manipulation and choice of electrode, for mig it is primarily in the setup of the machine before welding".

I couldn't agree more - from day one, I have felt that mig was "too fiddly" for me. For instance, yesterday I set my wire roll feed tension with the torch lead out straight, then welding it was curved on a big arc, wire feed intermittant, had to increase the tension to get a constant wire feed!! It seems something always needs set or adjusted. Now, I'm thinking about using gas - more variable(s) flow rate, leakage, etc.

I have a cheap Ozito stick AC welder that I use when the mig frustration level pegs out. When using arc on 1.6 duragal it is usually a series of tack welds - not pretty. I have no problem with the stick on 3.0mm. Haven't tried stick on anything between 1.6mm and 3.0mm.

Am I fighting a losing mig battle here?? For the material I use in my projects 40x40x2 and 20x20x1.6, would I be better off (and could I get away with) investing in a brand name inverter stick welder?

Thanks,

Ted

My money would still be on the Mig. I used to do thin stuff with a stick welder as it was all I had. Now I have the Mig I love those jobs I used to dread. Built a metal firewood box on castors for the back verandah. Used 1mm sheet welded onto a frame. Was messy to tack it the frame. Need to make another one now and am looking forward to it. I built a cement mixer many years ago from a heavy galv 44 gall drum. Used 2/3 of it. Cut triangle sections out of the outer 1/3 to create tapered shape. Welded it with 2mm rods. Wish I had access to a mig. It took a long time.

I would generally say anything under 2.5mm I would prefer to mig. My stick welder is an old transformer type so I cannot comment on benifets of inverter.

Dean

[QUOTE=twebb01;1501011]
I couldn't agree more - from day one, I have felt that mig was "too fiddly" for me. For instance, yesterday I set my wire roll feed tension with the torch lead out straight, then welding it was curved on a big arc, wire feed intermittant, had to increase the tension to get a constant wire feed!! It seems something always needs set or adjusted. Now, I'm thinking about using gas - more variable(s) flow rate, leakage, etc.

Sounds to me that you have a dirty/worn liner. If you have access to compressed air, the liner can be blown out, (disconnect from welder and remove contact tip first). If this does not improve your wire feeding then replace the liner. You mentioned earlier that the wire was a bit rusty, either pull wire off the roll until it is clear of rust or put a new roll of wire on. While I am not a fan of gassless wire, even solid wire will not feed well under these circumstances. If your usage is infrequent then consider storing the wire in your house when not in use for long periods as it will be less prone to rusting.
Don't be too concerned regarding knurled rollers, I have found that gasless will normally feed quite well with standard rolls all else being in order. Don't forget to also clean/ replace contact tips as required.

I have a cheap Ozito stick AC welder that I use when the mig frustration level pegs out. When using arc on 1.6 duragal it is usually a series of tack welds - not pretty. I have no problem with the stick on 3.0mm. Haven't tried stick on anything between 1.6mm and 3.0mm.

I am not familiar with the ozito welder, but would guess that it has a limited range of amperage adjustment making your job all the more difficult

Am I fighting a losing mig battle here?? For the material I use in my projects 40x40x2 and 20x20x1.6, would I be better off (and could I get away with) investing in a brand name inverter stick welder?

I don't believe that you are fighting a losing battle, just that you need to address the underlying problems before you can succeed.
An inverter will definitely handle what you propose, but, you already have the mig and for not too much outlay you can make it a workable proposition.
If you did not have the mig, I would steer you in the direction of an inverter for sure, but you would need to practice a bit to become truly proficient when working with thinner sections.

First, thanks to all for your helpful replies!

Yesterday morning I went out to the shed to weld up some 1.6mm duragal to post pictures on the thread for your comments. The welding was so p... poor that I just stopped! Erratic feed, some popping, fusion not to good, etc., etc, I just couldn't get it dialed in, the welds were just embarassing!!

To gain a little welding self respect I cranked up the little Ozito stick welder (lowest setting) and using some 2.0mm 'general purpose' Nuweld rods (no number of the box) layed some decent beads on 1.6mm painted rhs. I also tried 2.5mm Cigweld Satincraft E6013. I didn't feel they welded any better than the Nuweld rods. The Satincraft being about twice the price, I'll stick with the Nuweld rods. Granted, I was only running beads on flat material, but it was enjoyable and I'm thinking 'this is what welding should be'!

This week-end I'll be trying to 'join' 1.6 rhs cut-offs with the stick welder. Butts and fillets.

As indicated the MIG has been a big disappointment, but with the help on this forum I'm not ready to throw in the MIG towel - yet!!

My MIG game plan:

1. Clean and inspect the 0.9mm liner. If damaged replace with 0.9mm!

2. Get a new spool of gasless wire 0.8mm. I'm using 0.8mm wire because that is the size roller that came with the welder and should get through the 0.9mm liner a bit easier.

(If the gasless does not work out and I want to try gas, I can still use gasless wire on thicker material.)

3. QUESTION Get new 0.8mm tips to match the 0.8mm wire or new 0.9mm tips to match the 0.9mm liner???

4. Get more information on adjusting volts. I saw a good youtube regarding adjusting wire speed by listening for sizzle. I tried this successfully on 3.0mm, but couldn't get the sound on 1.6mm. May have been because of volts setting - I don't know. I need to do more research in the 'set-up' end of the mig. I believe Graham has indicated that with gasless, volts are more difficult to dial in.

5. If I'm not satisfied with the results - consider going gas!!

Whaddaya think? Is this a reasonable approach? Any suggestions?? I welcome and appreciate any and all comments!!

I'm still considering a dc inverter stick welder to add to the arsenal. I live on a farm and do a lot of welding as a hobby, stable/stall panels, etc, etc.. I enjoy welding - when things are going right!!

3. QUESTION Get new 0.8mm tips to match the 0.8mm wire or new 0.9mm tips to match the 0.9mm liner???

The tip has to match the wire used. The liner just needs to be big enough. The tip is what connects the current to the wire. I have heard that they actually have curved holes to cause sideways pressure from the wire to add to the contact.

What type of mig have you got? From what I have read you don't seem to have had any success with the mig. I was in that position once. I had to narrow down the posibilities til I found the problem.

I couldn't agree more - from day one, I have felt that mig was "too fiddly" for me. For instance, yesterday I set my wire roll feed tension with the torch lead out straight, then welding it was curved on a big arc, wire feed intermittant, had to increase the tension to get a constant wire feed!! It seems something always needs set or adjusted. Now, I'm thinking about using gas - more variable(s) flow rate, leakage, etc.

Yes you will then need to fine tune the tension to suit the position. Do you have a removable cable (Euro) or fixed style. Mine has a fixed cable / liner etc. One problem with these is that they tend to get a kink when being packaged in the factory. That is what my issue was. Check all connections and make sure the earth clamp is connecting via clean metal close to the weld.

Dean

Originally Posted by Oldneweng

The tip has to match the wire used. The liner just needs to be big enough. The tip is what connects the current to the wire. I have heard that they actually have curved holes to cause sideways pressure from the wire to add to the contact.

Thanks for the heads up on tip size needing to be same as wire size.

What type of mig have you got? From what I have read you don't seem to have had any success with the mig. I was in that position once. I had to narrow down the posibilities til I found the problem.

I have a Cigweld Transmig 180se, I've had it about ten years (but not used very much). It is supplied with a TWECO Mig torch 180A (not suitable for Euro models)


Yes you will then need to fine tune the tension to suit the position. Do you have a removable cable (Euro) or fixed style.

So does that mean when I change the psotion or layout of the torch cable I might need to adjust the wire roller? WOW - this sounds very, very 'fiddly' to me.

Mine has a fixed cable / liner etc. One problem with these is that they tend to get a kink when being packaged in the factory. That is what my issue was. Check all connections and make sure the earth clamp is connecting via clean metal close to the weld.

Will do, thanks again!

Dean

Hopefully my responses are embedded above following your questions/comments.