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11th August 2013, 09:26 PM #16SENIOR MEMBER
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All done, I put a whole new lead on, and connected it inside the machine at the main switch.
My 15amp power supply has its own circuit breaker and safety switch.
Powered it up, so all is good, curious if it will pop the circuit breaker at max load, will give it a try tommorrow
thanks to everyone for comments and links, without the comment about manufacturer recommending it suitable for any 15amp unit I woud have paid a grand to have a 32 amp line fitted.
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11th August 2013, 10:25 PM #17Senior Member
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Glad you sorted it out.
I work out plug sizes for domestic use by assessment. This is simply an assessment of what the machine would typically run at. Your machine has around 150amps at 100% duty cycle. This would draw about 15amps on the primary side, so would require a 15 amp outlet minimum.
Industrial use is worked out differently so that is why Machinery House states 32amp. Best way to find out is to check your owners manual or contact the manufacturer.
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12th August 2013, 02:33 PM #18Cheers.
Vernon.
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12th August 2013, 09:39 PM #19Senior Member
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Bit of conflicting info there between the two manuals.
The one on Unimigs site also says
• Connect the primary input cable according to Australian and New Zealand standards and regulations.
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13th August 2013, 08:33 AM #20
I'm not sure you can apply a subjective decision/rule here, based on whether it will be used in either a domestic or industrial situation. The bottom line is that the welder is capable of drawing 25A (continuously) and as a minimum needs to have a plug and cable/wiring fitted that is capable of handling that. Saying that it is "unlikely" it will be used at that level in a domestic situation is a statement fraught with danger (and I'm possibly also illegal).
I can understand that in an industrial situation you might go over and above the minimum requirements, but in ALL situations you should still at least meet those minimum requirements.Cheers.
Vernon.
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15th August 2013, 01:23 AM #21GOLD MEMBER
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The UNIMIG manual clearly states that the machine can be run of any 15A outlet. The welder has only got a 40% duty cycle at 250A MIG and 224A stick welding, probably on only a 5 minute cycle too, so I doubt that a 15A supply will be taxed greatly.
Consider the average household with multiple 10A GPO's on a 20A breaker. An electric heater, a kettle and the tv and surround sound system just blew your 20A limit and then some.
Don't make it harder than it needs to be.
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15th August 2013, 08:04 AM #22
Well I quoted from what would appear to be a slightly older manual (for that same model) and it clearly states otherwise. I'm guessing the newer manual was created with a bit of cut and paste, and that bit about the 15A supply was included by mistake.
But you seem so sure ...
...I doubt that a 15A supply will be taxed greatly
I'm not making anything "harder than it should be", I'm stating (very logical) facts, rather than using a lot of "she'll be rights".
43A max and up to 25A continuous current on a 15 amp circuit ... yeah mate, she'll be right. NOT!Cheers.
Vernon.
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15th August 2013, 08:23 AM #23
ADDED BY ADMIN
DISCLAIMER
No liability is accepted by UBeaut or the Wood Working Forum's administrators
or moderators for advice offered by members posting replies
or asking questions regarding electrical work.
We strongly advise contacting a Licensed Tradeperson for all electrical work.
WARNING
Information supplied within posts is not to be considered as detailed formal instructions to complete a task.
Members following such information do so at their own riskCheers
DJ
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15th August 2013, 12:12 PM #24Senior Member
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As Shown in Karl's example many house hold circuits can be easily overloaded.
But by selecting the right protective device and the correct cable for the installation conditions the circuit will operate in a "fit for purpose" manner and be restricted to the rating of the protective device.
In regards to protective devices trip times/curves this is also covered with the design selection from the relevant standards.
None of this is for the average Joe to decide , please contact an electrical contractor to assess your installation.
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15th August 2013, 01:13 PM #25
Agreed, but how is that relevant to what we are talking about?
This guy has bought a 250A welder and I assume he went for such a large welder because he intends to use it at some stage at (or close to) it's maximum capacity. If that is not the case, then he could have just gotten a 200A or 180A welder a lot cheaper.
Again agreed ... but as pointed out above, he bought a 250A welder and if he hooks it up to a 10A or 15A circuit (as has been suggested), it is going to significantly curtail the capabilities of the welder he purchased.
EDIT: Looking at the clipsal MCB info, a device with a FLC of 25A they recommend a 50A MCB (and suitably rated cable of course). On a normal 15A circuit you would most likely have a 20A (or may be a 25A) MCB - that according to clipsals recommendations would equate to about 12A FLC (less than half the welders rated current) or about 14A for a 25A MCB.Cheers.
Vernon.
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15th August 2013, 01:53 PM #26Senior Member
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This machine would need a 15 amp circuit minimum to be usable. Which why in the manual it states that it can be run off any 15 amp circuit
This would be the machines 100% duty cycle and may/may not be ample for some people. Using the welder close to its maximum capacity may still work for short periods but if you reach the protective device's limitations you will have to step up in circuit size.
If you choose a smaller welder the 100% duty cycle is normally less.
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15th August 2013, 03:26 PM #27
I'm not disputing that (hell, you could even run it off a 10A circuit for that matter), but it does make you wonder why the manufacturer doesn't put a 15A plug on the device. And it also makes you wonder why the previous version of the manual stated that the fitted plug must be capable of handling at least 25A.
Anyway, we seem to be going round in circles here, so the bottom line is if you want to use this welder to the fullness of it's capabilities, a 15A circuit will not cut it.Cheers.
Vernon.
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15th August 2013, 07:20 PM #28Member
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Vey few circuits are protected by a 15 amp fuse
If your power supply is wired correctly, it will be with 4mm cable (2.5 at worst)
and protected by at least a 25 or 32 amp breaker backed up by a 63 amp rcd
This cable is more than able to support the machine safely
The effective current is probably close to 19amps and with accepted tolerance in supply the rating can be 15amps
This is a simple explanation its a bit more complicated than that,
But you can be sure Unimig have had it checked
And if they say 15amp is ok I will take their word
Of course if your wiring is like most places in Nsw you'd probably be lucky to run a toaster and kettle safely at the same time-)
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15th August 2013, 08:35 PM #29SENIOR MEMBER
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If it's a 15A socket, chances are it's a dedicated circuit and with a higher-rated breaker, as mentioned, which also has a trip curve, as also mentioned. Treating a welder like a diversified load is entirely appropriate in my opinion - most of the time it'll operate well within the circuit's capacity, and even at peak output, it'll be limited by the duty cycle of the welder.
To put it in perspective, my little Smootharc 130 has a 10A plug, which is *very* handy, despite the fact that I've measured it putting out 160+ amps with a DC clamp meter on one of the leads. I haven't measured the AC amps, but I strongly suspect it's well in excess of 10A at that point, but given the nature of welding, you typically don't run the machine that hard for very long. If I ever do, I expect the thermal cutout on the welder will kick in, or the circuit breaker will trip well before any wires start to melt.
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15th August 2013, 08:58 PM #30
Sorry, by 15A circuit I meant a 15A outlet circuit.
I'm not sure where you are getting that from. If you believe the manufacturer, they say it's 25A. Do you know something they don't?
Sure and they say the effective current is 25A. They also say that when wiring the unit the plug must be able to handle the effective current (i.e. 25A).
So by all means let's follow the manufacturers specs and recommendations.Cheers.
Vernon.
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