Thread: requirements for a 15a circuit

Brendan and Montiee, I look forward to reading about your latest (last?) exploits when the next lot of Dawinian Exploits are published.

Originally Posted by silentC

From what I have read you seem to have an issue with tradespeople in general. All this talk of protecting income and unnecessary over complication. Smacks of someone with an axe to grind to me.

Whether I have an axe to grind or not is irrelevant to the information being discussed. I have an axe to grind with people who want to restrict information. In this particular case it's electrical tradies more than any other group.

Again I'll say it is not illegal to talk about how the work should be done or what the specs say needs to be done much to your dismay it seems.

Originally Posted by silentC

If you think encouraging people you've never met to do it themselves is responsible, well I can only disagree. I think you miss the point in every way.

Again you are twisting the argument. I am not encouraging or discouraging the guy in the slightest. I'm just supporting freedom of knowledge. Like I said in the past, it isn't illegal to discuss tax evasion schemes or how certain scams where carried out so you avoid the pitfalls of repeating past mistakes and it certainly isn't a form of encouragement nor discouragement discussin the topic just like having sexual education classes at school is not encouraging students to go and have sex except in the eyes of religious nutters.

Why should the regular consumer not know how a job should be done properly and go on blind faith that some tradesperson they picked out of a paper is not going to do the dodgy on them or provide them with a suboptimal solution at an inflated price. An informed consumer is a consumer in power.

I personally get an electrician in if I'm doing anything major. I'm happy to replace old power points and the like. It doesn't mean that I'm going to sit back and put blind faith into someone I've hired off the street. Thanks to my persistence in obtaining knowledge in this field I've kicked out a couple of tradies for not adhering to spec.No doubt the work would of being blamed on a diy'er if examined at a later date. Reporting clowns to the industry watchdog is a joke. One guy that I reported them told his mates in the area to boycott the job and I had to go out a couple suburbs away just to get a tradie in that would take the job after I reported the clown. I've also kicked out a few others who were so poorly trained as to not know how to do anything past the standard recipe they did everyday. Then there is the crowd that just outright blatantly lied about it not being possible to do and then when I said I'd get someone else in tried to change the story to keep the job. Yes it was above board but fiddly.

Originally Posted by silentC

Maybe you've looked in the odd meter box or done your own bit of illegal wiring in the past and now you think that qualifies you to judge what's involved. My personal opinion is that you haven't got a clue. I think it's amusing that you're trying to take on qualified sparkys based on whatever it is you think you know. Here's something you will understand: LOL mate LOL.

I find that you have not attacked any of the technical discussion or found any flaws in the technical side of this discussion.

Interesting isn't it ?

Originally Posted by Geoff Dean

Brendan and Montiee, I look forward to reading about your latest (last?) exploits when the next lot of Dawinian Exploits are published.

You'll probably be among them putting your blind trust in someone whom you do not know and who is human and can make mistakes yet you do not know enough to make sure he has done the job satisfactorily due to the closed shop mentality the trade has. Some during the year will lose their license due to negligence however the amount is a drop in the ocean as there aren't enough inspections running to catch all the dodgy ones unless they kill someone in the process or seriously injure them. You no doubt do more research and are more informed about chosing a power tool than making sure the wiring in your house is up to spec because unlike the power tool were information is easily accessible and people aren't shut down for talking about it the home wiring is the complete opposite.

No one says that you have to do the job yourself however having the knowledge handy to pull up a tradie when he potentially cuts a corner is useful to have and that requires open discussion and information. It keeps them honest. Any time I hire a tradie I examine there work. You cannot know the quailty unless you know something about what he has done, how it should of been done and what options were available otherwise you are just commenting on how nice the white insulation looks.

Monty, the information you are talking about is freely available to anyone. Well, when I say 'freely' it's available at the price of a copy of the Australian Wiring Standard. It's all in there for anyone who wants to read it. You don't need a license to buy it. Nobody is hiding it from anyone.

Lets just get a couple of things straight. There is nothing wrong with the advice I and others gave, which is to consult an electrician. I happen to believe this is the most responsible advice to give and the most sensible approach for the OP to take.

YOU have objected to it because of the chip you appear to have on your shoulder. Your entry into this thread was not to offer advice on how to complete the job, but to register your objection to that advice. Then you have gone on to suggest that electrical wiring is not "rocket surgery"; that sparkys deliberately over-complicate things in order to 'protect' their trade; and that those of us who suggest consultation with an electrician are attempting to prevent free access to information.

With the possible exception of the rocket science comment, this is nonsense. You can't turn this into some sort of "freedom of information" crusade because the information is already out there. If you want this to be a debate, it is about whether a person who has the knowledge to give advice should give it anonymously without responsibility and without being on site; whether the person asking for it is capable of implementing it; and whether the person asking for it should trust it given its anonymous and generic nature. The rest of your complaint is tilting at windmills.

Wonder why it is that we are not supposed to touch anything electrical unless you are a qualified tradesman ? They let us work on our own cars and cars kill heaps more people than electricity .Any dope is allowed to have a go at replacing brake pads , bleeding brakes , changing a worn universal , replace a fuel pump , fuel tank ,ball joints etc etc all sorts of jobs that if not done properly turn a car into a lethal weapon .Imagine brake failure at a busy school crossing or a sports field full of kids at the bottom of a steep hill .And any dope is allowed to bring up kids and half the kids turn out drug dealers or hoons and cause havoc in society. But if a bloke wants to learn how to replace a power point he is a criminal??

All the red tape and beauracracy will simply make everything too difficult and expensive to do .We wont be able to compete with China and India.We will get so fat , lazy and weak that Indonesia will easilly invade .Wave your rule books at 20 million Indo soldiers and see how far it gets you .

Well, the first thing is that just because one thing is allowed, it doesn't follow that another thing should be. Maybe they will regulate car repairs one day too, so don't get too comfortable.

Personally, I think there are two reasons: it gives them a licensed backside to kick if things aren't done right; and I'm sure there is a hefty amount of union protectionism in it too.

Originally Posted by silentC

If you want this to be a debate, it is about whether a person who has the knowledge to give advice should give it anonymously without responsibility and without being on site;

I'm sorry but no one died and made you god to dictate what the terms of the debate should be about. It seems each time I say something that you have no answer for you like to subvert it to another topic of your liking and convenience. It doesn't work like that.

This is whether you care to admit it or not a discussion on whether such information should be available and it's clearly not given how some people jump up and down saying "it's against the law" blah blah as the excuse not to hand out info. Also I do not count spending hundreds of dollars and not being able to easily find which standard is applicable as being information "freely" available for a simple question like what wire do I use on a 15A circuit for a residntial property. The cost is just another barrier to information which should literally be free. If it was freely available we wouldn't be having this discussion. We would just direct the person to the relevant section and ask them to read. End of story.

If you do not feel comfortable participating in a thread asking for the specs to do a job properly then by all means feel to become a silent observer. The way the internet works there are plenty of people offering advice on a range of subjects. What you seem to be arguing for is that the internet cease and any technical discussions about topics cease to exist because no one is accountable. It's not going to happen and that is one of the great things about the internet is that censorship no matter your argument cannot be controlled so easily.

The thing is, Monty, We've debated this issue before in these forums. We generally concluded that these forums aren't the place to be giving out info on electrical work for DIY's. This is because not one of us likes the idea of our houses catching fire in the middle of the night while our kids are innocently asleep in their bedrooms. Employing a licensed and experienced electrician reduces the risk of this.

I can see where you're coming from, and a few years ago I might have agreed with you. But after talking to a copper one day about the devastation he's witnessed at the scenes of fires initiated by electrical faults, my attitude changed. Not only that, but if your house does burn down and they trace the cause to electrical work done by a DIY'er, bye bye insurance. It's just not worth it. Sorry mate, but that's the way I see it.

Originally Posted by montiee

You'll probably be among them putting your blind trust in someone whom you do not know and who is human and can make mistakes yet you do not know enough to make sure he has done the job satisfactorily due to the closed shop mentality the trade has. Some during the year will lose their license due to negligence however the amount is a drop in the ocean as there aren't enough inspections running to catch all the dodgy ones unless they kill someone in the process or seriously injure them. You no doubt do more research and are more informed about chosing a power tool than making sure the wiring in your house is up to spec because unlike the power tool were information is easily accessible and people aren't shut down for talking about it the home wiring is the complete opposite.

No one says that you have to do the job yourself however having the knowledge handy to pull up a tradie when he potentially cuts a corner is useful to have and that requires open discussion and information. It keeps them honest. Any time I hire a tradie I examine there work. You cannot know the quailty unless you know something about what he has done, how it should of been done and what options were available otherwise you are just commenting on how nice the white insulation looks.

Montiee, all of that comment could be equally relevant about orthopedic surgery. I have had 2 knee reconstructions and just recently a knee replacement.

I researched both procedures via the internet extensively, and while I feel I have the knowledge to be able to do both procedures, I have no desire to attempt either. Neither am I going to attempt to second guess the surgeon, or have anyone critique his work.

Originally Posted by montiee

You no doubt do more research and are more informed about chosing a power tool than making sure the wiring in your house is up to spec because unlike the power tool were information is easily accessible and people aren't shut down for talking about it the home wiring is the complete opposite.

What a lot of hogs wallop. I don't need to check the standards of a power tool to ensure that it up to spec, I trust that the standards association has already done that before it was allowed on the market. People aren't shut down for talking about home wiring, they can talk as much as they like about it, you just can't do it yourself. How hard a concept is that to understand?

The wiring for my house when we built it was subcontracted to a licensed electrician by our licensed builder. I trust both of them to have done the right thing, that's what they are being paid to do.

You seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder about licensed electricians, is it just them that you don't trust, or is it everyone whom you come into contact with? I hope it is not the latter, for you would live a very sad life if it is.

Rossluck and SilentC, you both have no doubt heard the expression "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

Unfortunately this world is populated with people who are at the very bottom of the gene pool, and it appears in this case at least, that electricity may be their choice to remove themselves (and possibly others) from the gene pool.

Using the logic displayed by some, it would appear now that murder and theft are okay, because the laws that make it illegal to commit both acts, are in fact only stopping some of us from doing what we want to do.

No longer will we need to have car licenses, we can travel at whatever speed we wish, etc etc etc.

Laws are there to protect society, from themselves and from others. If you think a law is wrong, then lobby to have it changed by all means, but to incited others to break that law, to further your own agenda, just shows what sort of person you are.

From the information I have gleaned here, I am confident enough to have a go at wiring up the new 30amp GPO next to the bath so my wife can dry her hair while she has a soak.

Got to go now, my neighbour wants a few power points in his kids bedroom, and a couple of down lights etc. He's paying me cash!!!!

Originally Posted by Fossil

From the information I have gleaned here, I am confident enough to have a go at wiring up the new 30amp GPO next to the bath so my wife can dry her hair while she has a soak.

Got to go now, my neighbour wants a few power points in his kids bedroom, and a couple of down lights etc. He's paying me cash!!!!

You and the missus not getting on, Fossil?

I'm sorry but no one died and made you god to dictate what the terms of the debate should be about.

I can and will specify the terms under which I will participate in a debate. If you don't like it, argue about whatever you like. Create your strawman arguments and knock them down, but don't attribute them to me.

The reason you stuck your nose in here at all is because you have some knee-jerk negative reaction to the advice "get an electrician". You're not here to help anyone solve their wiring problems. You're here to have an argument, end of story.

As for having to pay for a copy of the wiring standard if you want to learn about wiring, I suppose you're one of those people who think that the tax payer should fund your education and pay for your textbooks? Show me any other field in which you can walk into a book store and take a copy of a technical manual free of charge.

I repeat: my advice to anyone asking questions about wiring is "consult an electrician". I've given my reasons for it. I can't prevent anyone from posting what they wish. Others are free to do as they wish. The OP is free to do what he wants. You are free to do what you want, just don't criticise me for expressing MY opinion. If it makes one person stop and think that maybe the job is beyond them, then that is a good thing.

Just remember that it was you who popped his head up and starting making unfounded accusations about conspiracies and deliberate obfuscation. Unfortunately it is clear to me that you are never going to get it, so unless you've got something new to add, I think I'm inclined to ignore your further harpings on it.

Thread Closed

Originally Posted by Fossil

Thread Closed

The only sensible thing i have heard, good one Fossil

CasperC