Thread: TIG foot control for Chinese welder

Originally Posted by Pete F

The only other source of these I've seen is the same gentleman I bought the welder from. A really nice guy and I'd love to give him the business, but he's asking $145 for these ... come on! For those who may not be aware, inside these boxes are basically two working parts, a 10K potentiometer and a switch! That's it.

Hi Pete,

When you take into account that the Government takes 10% in GST and the seller posts for free it makes the local supplier $30 (or 25%) more expensive than the Chinese supplier (Shopriver6). Further when you take into account the cost of living in Australia compaared to China, it makes the local supplier seem pretty reasonable on their markup. Yes, I know they have $3 worth of bits in them but is your own personal time worth so little that you would bother making one?

On comparison, have a look at the CIG foot controls, $780 plus GST for somethng that does the same job but is sold by a multi million dollar corporation.

Cheers
John

Sorry John, there is absolutely no justification for the price being asked locally. It is a blatant rip-off based on "because we can". You titled your post "Compare apples with apples" and then justify the local price based on the import cost plus POSTAGE costs (assuming the seller sees little or none of the postage cost), or how much it would take me to build one???? How is that in any way comparing apples with apples?

Anyway, for a giggle let's do the sums. $145 - $15 GST - $15 postage (both being generous), so that leaves $115. If these weren't being landed in Oz for less that 30-40 bucks TOPS, then something is wrong. Hell, he could pay RETAIL from the ebay seller in China, and get them thrown in the same container the welders come out in and STILL have them in Australia for less than 50!!! Maybe you consider a 300% markup acceptable, I definitely do not. ESPECIALLY for an online retailer 50 bucks, yeah. 60 dollars. Maybe. 70 dollars is a touch. ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY FIVE DOLLARS, you're joking!!!

I have friends in retail and all of them are saying how tight things are. None of them are wealthy ... hmmm no actually they are, bad example. Anyway, I'm not suggesting retail is a gravy train. Yes money is tight, but as Borders and other retailers found out, people are also pretty with feeling as if they're being constantly ripped off. Many people are either importing directly (just like the local retailers do, the local foot controls aren't made here John!), or simply keeping their money in their wallets. Our dollar is currently up against virtually every currency in the world, yet NONE of that is being passed through to the final customer. Yet a few years ago, when the opposite was true, prices were going up virtually weekly, justified on the basis of the "weak dollar". A one way street apparently! Sorry I don't mean to be cranky but I've heard all the lame excuses I really want to hear as to why I should be paying twice the price asked overseas for the identical (typically Chinese made) product and to be honest I'm getting a little tired of hearing them. Normally "freight costs" is cited. How do they think I get the products out here when I work out how much something will cost me? Divine intervention? Hmm, that didn't work. Ok, try "local warranty". In Australia "local warranty" is more like a Monty Python Argument Clinic sketch as the retailer dusks, weaves, and generally screws the customer around trying to make out it was actually the customer's fault! So it goes on. It's about time retailers started learning about the concept of providing value for money, instead of the traditional "what the market can bear" way of pricing. Because let me tell you I bring almost everything I buy in now from overseas, a few years back I was a bit of a pathfinder, but not these days. It's just as easy to click on a link hosted in the US/UK/Hong Kong/China etc etc etc as it is to click on a local link, and typically only a few days difference in postage time. If they were $70 locally I'd still feel like I was being touched, but I would pay it just the same. $145 and the money stays in my wallet. Times are a changing John!

However I didn't post with the intention to start an argument about retail prices here in Australia, nor whether a 300% markup is justified. If anyone wants to pay $780 + GST for a foot control, they can knock themselves out (the ultimate in "because we can"). I'm after a cheaper source for my 10 bucks worth of parts (that, incidentally, is literally roughly what they would cost from Jaycar). If others feel that $145 is a fair price to ask for a pretty ordinary looking foot control well that's great. Sorry John but mate, I'm just not one of them.

Pete

I wonder how difficult it would be to make up yourself, or if you could adapt a sewing machine pedal (As they seem to vary the speed of the machine dependent on how hard you push down).

Originally Posted by LordBug

I wonder how difficult it would be to make up yourself, or if you could adapt a sewing machine pedal (As they seem to vary the speed of the machine dependent on how hard you push down).

I've seen people do just that, and it shouldn't be difficult at all. Actually the only reason I didn't simply knock one up is the physical construction. A sewing machine foor control could be used if you ripped it apart and could fit a miniature pot in there, then work out how to drive it. Likewise the switch. It would be a neat arrangement

The Chinese ones (whether purchased locally or from O/S) look like a POS that has had about 3 microseconds of "design" put into them by the local metal shop school kids. Another reason why I'm not about to spend 145 bucks on one! I've seen an alternative fabricated from scratch from aluminium, and that looked ok.

Pete

Pete, I bought one that looks almost exactly the same as this, same price, different retailer. I actually thought it was cheap given the prices of others that I had seen around the place (see https://www.woodworkforums.com/f160/c...roller-128806/).

I had to pull mine apart because it was sticky in operation and the gear/thread wasn't engaging properly. There were a couple of little assembly issues with it that contributed to this. Anyway, I pulled it apart, made some minor modifications, a bit of lubrication and it's fine now.

Regarding use... I didn't use it much for ages, but now use it all the time. Great for everything but especially aluminium. Especially so, because I don't like where the trigger is on my TIG torch (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f160/r...stions-138341/), so to use the pedal as the trigger is nice. I know a few people regard them as low down on the priority list, but I find that I get a better result and it's quicker with a foot pedal. For example I set max amps suitable for a deep fillet, and just back off a bit with the pedal when turning the corner onto the butt. Previously I would've stopped and adjusted the machine and been pretty precise about it too.

The box-like form of the thing is OK when standing (most of my welding is standing - so works for me), but a bit too big when sitting as one foot is up about 6" higher than the other one. I've never used any other one, so can't compare but I think Miller have a flatter form that I reckon would be better for desk work.

As you say, there's bugger all to them and I can think of a few design improvements I'd include if I was making one. If you do end up making one make sure you post a thread on it.

Cheers

- Mick

Hey thanks Mick. You didn't happen to take photos of the thing while it was apart did you?

The prices asked for [brand name xx] pedals are just absurd. In most cases I don't believe there is in any more in them than in these Chinese ones, however they are able to get the extortionate prices as there is no other option. No company is going to have an employee sit down for days making one of these up, and in the case of some welders you'd probably find the plug would be difficult to buy and expensive in itself. One way or the other they bend you over!

I'm in the opposite situation Mick, I rarely weld standing up, it's all done sitting at my bench. I haven't had a foot pedal before, but even a few moments ago, while (attempting to) welding a bandsaw blade I wish I'd had control of the current on the fly. A lot of the minuscule amount of welding I do is fiddly little things like that.

If the foot pedal available was actually a well designed and made unit the asking price would be one thing, but I can see, and sadly you found out first hand Mick, it's not. It's a poorly designed and manufactured rubbish. When I've looked for pedals in the past I found a company in the US who make TIG pedals, they looked to be good quality and were the style I was after, and IIRC they were around the same price as the local prices for the Chinese crap. If the only options are $145 for a POS collection of 10 dollars worth of parts or making my own, I may explore spending the same amount of money on the US made one. The electronics of making one is a no-brainer, it's the physical construction that I think would be a pain. However yes, if it comes down to it I'll most definitely post a step-by-step guide on making one.

Pete

Nah, didn't take any photos.

As I said, if you're welding at a desk, then I'd consider a flatter design, particularly if you were going to be sitting there welding for long stints.

regarding value for money... it's in the eye of the beholder really. Was mine made in China for less that $10? Almost certainly. Have I got $145 of value out of mine? Yes.

I wouldn't classify it as a bit of rubbish - it's just not as good as it could be. Then again, for my use, it probably doesn't need to be much better anyway - in the end it serves a purpose.

Cheers

- Mick

Originally Posted by Pete F

Anyway, for a giggle let's do the sums. $145 - $15 GST - $15 postage (both being generous), so that leaves $115. If these weren't being landed in Oz for less that 30-40 bucks TOPS, then something is wrong. Hell, he could pay RETAIL from the ebay seller in China, and get them thrown in the same container the welders come out in and STILL have them in Australia for less than 50!!! Maybe you consider a 300% markup acceptable, I definitely do not. ESPECIALLY for an online retailer 50 bucks, yeah. 60 dollars. Maybe. 70 dollars is a touch. ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY FIVE DOLLARS, you're joking!!!

Pete

Hey Pete ,

Not here for a blue either. So in effect what you are saying is that company XYZ should fork out hundreds of thousands to fill a container, land it here with tarrifs and taxes added, then have a warehouse to store everything in, have staff, pay wages, take all the capital risk and be there in the long run to serve you should you have a need for warranty?

In return company XYZ is crucified for adding $70 to the item.

Are you one of those people that believes the staff at hardly normal when they say....."I can't go any lower, look at the screen here, I am giving this to you at $1 plus invoice cost."? Did you ever look around at the store and wonder where all the money comes from to pay the 30 staff onsite plus cover the cost of the lease on a 6000 square metre prime commercial building? Not from the $1 markup, that is for sure.

Back to the topic, it seems what you have uncovered is a massive marketing opportunity. I would expect you be ordering a thousand units from China and selling them for $70 each, you could well make $40,000 profit .

As I said in the top Pete, not here for a war. My comments are tongue in cheek and here to stimulate thoughts beyond the consumers perspective into that of the entities that take capital risk.

Cheers
John

John, well I'd suggest you ARE here for an argument because in neither of your posts have you addressed the question that I asked apart from a sarcastic dig.

So given that you think 300% mark-up is reasonable for a retailer and you're intent on an argument let's have a look at some of the points you raised. I'm not going to name the company I bought my welders from (and who I would have bought the foot control from) as I have nothing against the company, indeed think the person who runs it is a nice guy. "They" are free to run their company any way they choose, as are you. However let me just say that I used the term "they" somewhat liberally, as there is no "they" John, there are no "warehouses" full of "hundreds of thousands" of dollars worth of goods, there are no 30 staff John, there is no flashy showroom to look around. Why? Because it is ONE person who imports the products directly from China, then sells and markets them online through various channels. HE (sans the 30 staff John) operates from a small warehouse nowhere near a capital city and would therefore have very low overheads. So in answer to your statement, I am not about to crucify the retailer otherwise I would name them, but I'm sure as hell not going to do them any favours either. I simply cannot believe that you feel 300% mark-up is reasonable and are trying to somehow defend that. As I recall we've had this discussion before John, regarding Miller Helmets and why is it that they sell in bricks 'n' mortar retailers in the US for a fraction of what they sell here. Don't tell me, it's because of "freight" right? ... or is it "capital risk" now?

So let's move on to Australian "warranty" shall we. As I mentioned above if ever there is a contradiction in terms it would have to be in the use of "Australia" and "Warranty" in the same sentence. Of course there are exceptions, but if I excluded large corporations (typically from the US) with formal policies I've found the "warranty" in Australia absolutely worthless. The retailer seems to genuinely feel they're doing the customer a favour by submitting the product for REPAIR. The fact that it is one week old and broke on first use is irrelevant, the customer is typically treated with suspicion as surely they were the one who "caused" it to break. I used to spend a lot of time in the US with work and over there it's the complete opposite, again there are exceptions but typically if a product HAS LET THE PAYING CUSTOMER DOWN the PAYING CUSTOMER will walk back out the door with a brand new product. Yet even with that return/exchange policy many (most) things are half the price of here!!!!

Ah you say, but I'm talking about mainstream products and welding is different. Well let me then share a story about one of MY welders John. The bigger AC/DC welder was purchased from the same ONLINE retailer (that would be the one without 30 sales staff, no showroom, no warehouses, no hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of stock in containers stacked 4 high), and although I offered to go pick it up I was told that wasn't possible as he'd sold it to me "at a loss". The fact that I travel to China and especially Hong Kong and see how much they RETAIL for there was a minor detail I didn't go into so I let him send it out by courier with the clear additional mark-up he made between his cost and what he charged for delivery. Fine, it saved me some fuel. But wait, when it arrived it was dead. So now how about my "warranty" John. Of course I could pay, at MY OWN EXPENSE to have it couriered back to him. OR I could pay, at MY OWN EXPENSE to drive to his warehouse. Or I could simply just fix it myself. This is where I have nothing against the owner because to his credit after my email to him telling him it arrived faulty he rang me at night outside normal hours and suggested where I may look for the problem. Since in a past life I worked in the electronics industry I was able to pull it apart, locate the problem, modify the crap Chinese design so it wouldn't happen again, and fix up a few other things while I had the cover off. Indeed just today I had to pull it apart AGAIN to fix a sticking gas solenoid, something it has also done since new But that was me, I was lucky, how's the "warranty" for somebody else who didn't have my exposure in this area and received it DOA? At best a hefty courrier bill and no welder until it is returned.

So, John, did you still want to talk retail? You seem to presume I know nothing about the topic. Perhaps I should mention that there are a couple of business degrees hanging on my wall that suggest otherwise! I'm happy to continue, but perhaps we could get back to the original question? Maybe if Australian retailers weren't so intent on charging "what (they think) the market will bear", people wouldn't feel the need to look overseas for cheaper alternatives and would buy locally instead. Gosh, there's a thought

Thanks again Mick, I agree with your sentiments regarding utility. I just get a little disappointed when I see people on the one hand taking advantage of a situation in which they know they basically have the customer by the short and curlies, then on the other hand cry poor at the first opportunity. John mentioned a large electrical retailer, and I don't think there was much sympathy for Gerry's campaign against people like myself who feel that nobody is denying the right for a reasonable return on their capital risked but "fair go!"

Pete

Hi Pete,

I didn't answer the questions because I did not want to start an online argument. Like I said , happy happy happy, no blue intended.

You are absolutely correct in everything that you said. I have no credability, no degrees, in fact in Shultz's own words...I know nuthink.

I am backing away slowly out of the room and I am not making eye contact.

John

This was the company I was thinking about in the US. Product Listing - TIG I think they have put up their prices since I last visited their site, but still a fraction of the price asked for similar products sold here in Oz by those who "risk their capital", a situation apparently unique to Australian companies.

John, I have no idea what you would or wouldn't know. However as I've heard that, or a similar tune, sung so many times before, I expect you know a heck of a lot more than you suggest. I was definitely not trying to beat my own chest regarding my qualifications, nor imply anything less of yours, however your comments about me being "one of those [stupid] people" at Hardly Normal raised my eyebrows that's for sure! What I'm proposing is that at the moment we have a bit of a Mexican Standoff between retailers and the public and while retailers continue to adopt this "what the market will bear" attitude to retail pricing they are basically screwed. On the one hand retail is like a wasteland, yet freight and postal contractors are struggling to keep up with demand. Maybe there's a message there.

Pete

Edit: John this is PRECISELY the type of thing I'm referring to regarding service. I didn't want to poison the other thread with my OT opinion, but since this has come up at the same time:

Just got my Lincoln 180c -Not Good!!
Just had my Lincoln Power MIG 180C delivered.

Opened the box and the chassis is twisted!!! Grr...
The shop denies liability and the freight Company denies liability.
Not Happy, Jan!!!!

The box it came in had no damage on it, so I can't blame the companies for denying it.
Contacted Lincoln Electric Australia and they are looking into it.

I'll keep you informed.

Your response John:

Not good. I think the best part of a new purchase is when you get to open the box and smell the nice manshed equipment smell. I am sure Lincoln will look after you. I am suprised however the supplier that sold it decided to flick you off so fast.

Cheers
John

I am very disappointed for this member, but sadly not surprised. It seems Australian retail is very happy to charge a premium for "Australian warranty", but the moment something goes wrong they run a mile ... then whinge that sales are down.

Well I can only speak from experience. I never complain about the cost of things. I have found in life that people with money seldom do. I have also worked out a simple equation, the volume of complaint eminating from an individual's pie hole is inversely proportional to the amount of disposable income in their bank account.

Originally Posted by Pete F

I am very disappointed for this member, but sadly not surprised. It seems Australian retail is very happy to charge a premium for "Australian warranty", but the moment something goes wrong they run a mile ... then whinge that sales are down.

Retailer tried that on my daughter recently. I told her to point out that the Trade Practices Act overrode any & all disclaimers and that an item had to be fit for its intended purpose, plus of merchantable quality, and something that died didn't comply.

She got a replacement.

Amazing just how many retailers either don't know or refuse to acknowledge the TPA *including* the bit about warranty issues being the responsibility of the RETAILER not the manufacturer.

Ebay sales are a bit of a grey area I think as if it's an auction it's buyer beware. Online 'Buy it now' sales might be in a different position.

WRT freight costs I used to hear it all the time after I moved to Tasmania. They didn't like it when I pointed out I could get a cubic metre of stuff picked up in Sydney & delivered to my door for $150 in less than a week. If I could do that, what was *their* problem?

Retail is under the gun because they simply aren't providing a service at a reasonable price any more. The business model is broken. I'll buy locally if I'm getting good service and not getting toooo gouged on the price, otherwise it's off to the online sales places.

PDW

This thread seems to have gone OT but I'll add my 2cents....

I had a email interaction with an eBay seller in SA this morning about a milling machine he has up. I looked through the pics and mysteriously a photo of a Hare and Forbes mill appears in the gallery. So I ask old mate "your mill looks the same as the H&F mill - do they come out of the same factory?"

To which he replied...."Dunno mate, we are just the seller".

Needless to say I will not be buying his mill no matter how much cheaper it is than H&F. If you want to whinge about Aussie retailers, thats where to start. You pay bottom dollar for a POS ex-China with no care, no responsibility, no support and a concrete warranty....what do you expect?

I paid a little bit more for my MIG and TIG welders, both UniMig units. Yes I could have paid about 30% and got a POS off eBay....but the potential downside meant the extra expense was worth it. When I need a foot pedal, I'll be going back to buy a UniMig one (last quoted $250). Why? Because if it craps out then I can take it back to my local shop and get some service.

Hey for 4" cut off discs I might try and skimp a bit but not for welding hardware.

And I think there are two sides to every story.

Happy days.