Thread: TIG Welding Aluminium back for more Q's

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

The way I feed wire is by holding the filler wire as you would a pen and then walking my fingers up the filler as required. This feeds the filler rod, but the actual addition of the filler to the puddle is by dabbing the end of the filler with a wrist action. If needs be, don't worry about the feeding to much, just hold the filler say 200mm back from the working end, dab dab dab until that's gone, stop, get another grip and go again until you get proficient at the whole feeding action.
You will find it really easy to find a WP26 torch to fit, your welder appears to use DINSE plugs like most all the chinese welders and consumables are industry standard - 10N47 is the shroud you'll want for Ally.
If you are lucky, you may find that you can purchase just a new torch head and fit it to your leads if dollars are really tight. I would probably not though as that torch is really only rated at about 150A and I suspect the leads will be quite thin. The Wp26's are rated 200A@100% - like all air cooled torches, they will get quite warm at that amperage though. I reckon that Magnum welders could probably sort you out, his standard wp 26 is around the $100+ freight mark I think. Token tools has them too.
As a matter of interest, I messaged Bitdeals and asked what torch it was and where I could buy consumables. To quote their reply which just arrived -
"We do not sell consumables but there are a lot on ebay and shops
Best Regards,
Bit Deals Customer Service Team"

That's what they think eh. I don't think I'd ever want to deal with them if that's their level of follow through.

ive tried feeding the wire as u do thats actually how i first started when i was practicing running beads but the problem is my hands shake a little so by the time that reaches the end of the filler rod its all over the place especially when i dont have anything to support my right hand on same goes for the torch when my left hand doesnt have anything to support it im all over the place and i end up dipping the tungsten, ill try give it another go your way and see
the way ive been using the filler rods im able to use a whole rod in one weld but its messing up the welds so i need to do something about it
my tig torch is actually a 16mm 1.5mm thread the gas and power? is ran up the same hose and i have a two pin plug separate, ill look on token tools web site now and have a look, i did see a torch on ebay that will fit but its in china
WP26 12E 200A WP 26 SR 26 TIG Torch Welding Torch GUN | eBay
it has the same connections as my torch

Oh, okay, I assumed that they had supplied a DINSE adaptor with your welder.
Not a bad delivery time for that one. They also come in a longer version if you need more reach. WP26 25E 200A WP 26 SR 26 TIG Welding Torch Brand NEW | eBay
Looks like that may be the way forward.

thanks for the help karl much appreciated

i found this torch on ali express the seller has 202 feedback 100% and its only $83 with fedex express shipping what do u think? i might order it on next tuesday although its only a 17 not the 26 size torch

I wouldn't touch it. It's only rated at 125A @35% for AC current and 140A @ 35% DC. That's really only a few minutes welding 3mm ally in real terms.
I've used a 17 size torch extensively on a little DC Tig welding stainless and believe me, even at 100A, they get damn hot.
You really want a 26 for serious AC work - that's why most of the single phase AC tigs come with them. Best of all a WP18 water cooled torch, but that's above where you want/ need to be.
I don't know if you noticed or not, but those sellers are the same as sell on ebay and all the torches came out of china that I could see.
I probably would consider the torches that I linked to earlier, other wise, Token Tools or Magnum may be the go.
I realise you take a risk buying out of china, but have to balance it against the cost advantage. A lot of BOC gear comes from either china or south africa, a lot of Lincoln gear is chinese as is some cigweld and WIA. As long as the threads in the torch are okay and the leads are half decent, not much can go wrong. Switches are replaceable and that's about all there is to a torch.

sorry karl i had my guns mixed this is the one i thought was a 17 but actually its 26 200A WP 26 SR 26 Tig Torch Gun for TIG Welding 12 Feet-in Other Machinery from Industry & Business on Aliexpress.com it has the two connectors i need for my machine and has express shipping, is this the same gun as u posted with a different color handle grip?

Yep, I'd say she is. For what it's worth, that appears to be the same torch that cigweld supply with their beautiful little 200A pulse tig, (a $4500 machine).
They are a nice torch, not quite as flexible as a water cooled torch due to needing heavier leads but very usable. They take standard consumables that are really well priced. I can give you a link to a chart that gives the part numbers and sizes for all the components if you like.
The only comment that I would make is that they require their own type of switch if you need to replace it, rather than the generic type switch, but quite frankly, the chances of you needing to replace a switch are pretty remote.
You will not regret making the change.

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

Yep, I'd say she is. For what it's worth, that appears to be the same torch that cigweld supply with their beautiful little 200A pulse tig, (a $4500 machine).
They are a nice torch, not quite as flexible as a water cooled torch due to needing heavier leads but very usable. They take standard consumables that are really well priced. I can give you a link to a chart that gives the part numbers and sizes for all the components if you like.
The only comment that I would make is that they require their own type of switch if you need to replace it, rather than the generic type switch, but quite frankly, the chances of you needing to replace a switch are pretty remote.
You will not regret making the change.

thanks mate ill order that torch next week, do u know if the flexible head is available to suit that torch? or is the head its self able to turn? it might be a bit awkward if the head is fixed as with my current torch im able to rotate the switch witch comes in handy for the hand position i use

To the best of my knowledge, the neck isn't flexible. Token tools sell a flexible neck for that torch I believe, but they don't rotate as far as I am aware.
You wouldn't believe some of the spots that I've had to get into with the tig torch to repair, sumps on cars, truck intercoolers, pipeslines etc. Think the Kama Sutra meets Steady Eddie. Never once have I turned a switch etc. The morals of the story being that firstly, I don't think this will be a hinderance to you, secondly, remember that the button can be operated with any one of four fingers and one thumb, so you may need to think outside the square a bit in tight areas. There are swivel head torches available that can rotate and gyrate better than the best belly dancer, they come at a price though and are a bit more bulky in the neck area. I actually have a version of the torch you are looking at and it has served me well enough on an old EMF DC generator welder, so I don't believe you will have a problem.
Thinking back, mostly I completed the tasks with the long back cap in place also. You'll be right with a standard torch I reckon. A comment I would make, not specifically about you, but a generalisation, is that many starting out are a bit overwhelmed at the options available and probably need to focus more on basics and build proficiencies. Welding has become a bit like fishing in some ways - we know lures are made to catch fishermen and not fish
Not too many years ago, an AC tig outfit was an EMF pie heater with a manual gas valve torch. No square wave, no balanced AC, no frequency adjustments and no pulse. Some of the boilys and sheeties using them would put many of us to the test today, because they knew their machines and improvised.
If I were you, (and I was once), I'd pull the trigger and order a torch, although if access is easy, I would probably have a talk to a local supplier, it may cost a couple more dollars, but you can feel the torch before you commit to buy. You definitely will need to either order your consumables from china it seems and keep a large stock of spares, or swap to a torch with freely available consumables.
Whatever torch you end up with, keep a couple of spare collet bodies, these will break without warning sometimes and keep spare shrouds, more than once, I have flipped my shield up, only to see the end of the shroud drop off as cleanly as if you cut it.
I have attached a PDF listing the consumables for the 17 18 and 26 series torches. If you use the Cross Ref. part numbers, any supplier worth their salt will know what you want. Generally, I use 10N47 shrouds for AC work unless really fine work is on the cards and 10N49 for DC work on steel and stainless. These are up to personal preference, access restrictions and material thickness.

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

To the best of my knowledge, the neck isn't flexible. Token tools sell a flexible neck for that torch I believe, but they don't rotate as far as I am aware.
You wouldn't believe some of the spots that I've had to get into with the tig torch to repair, sumps on cars, truck intercoolers, pipeslines etc. Think the Kama Sutra meets Steady Eddie. Never once have I turned a switch etc. The morals of the story being that firstly, I don't think this will be a hinderance to you, secondly, remember that the button can be operated with any one of four fingers and one thumb, so you may need to think outside the square a bit in tight areas. There are swivel head torches available that can rotate and gyrate better than the best belly dancer, they come at a price though and are a bit more bulky in the neck area. I actually have a version of the torch you are looking at and it has served me well enough on an old EMF DC generator welder, so I don't believe you will have a problem.
Thinking back, mostly I completed the tasks with the long back cap in place also. You'll be right with a standard torch I reckon. A comment I would make, not specifically about you, but a generalisation, is that many starting out are a bit overwhelmed at the options available and probably need to focus more on basics and build proficiencies. Welding has become a bit like fishing in some ways - we know lures are made to catch fishermen and not fish
Not too many years ago, an AC tig outfit was an EMF pie heater with a manual gas valve torch. No square wave, no balanced AC, no frequency adjustments and no pulse. Some of the boilys and sheeties using them would put many of us to the test today, because they knew their machines and improvised.
If I were you, (and I was once), I'd pull the trigger and order a torch, although if access is easy, I would probably have a talk to a local supplier, it may cost a couple more dollars, but you can feel the torch before you commit to buy. You definitely will need to either order your consumables from china it seems and keep a large stock of spares, or swap to a torch with freely available consumables.
Whatever torch you end up with, keep a couple of spare collet bodies, these will break without warning sometimes and keep spare shrouds, more than once, I have flipped my shield up, only to see the end of the shroud drop off as cleanly as if you cut it.
I have attached a PDF listing the consumables for the 17 18 and 26 series torches. If you use the Cross Ref. part numbers, any supplier worth their salt will know what you want. Generally, I use 10N47 shrouds for AC work unless really fine work is on the cards and 10N49 for DC work on steel and stainless. These are up to personal preference, access restrictions and material thickness.

thanks for the parts manual mate

i just got off the phone to my local welding shop https://www.nationalwelding.com.au/t...ig-torch-c-113 and they said a torch can be built for my machine starting at $135 for a 26 size torch

Sounds like a plan to buy local then, (it will still be chinese of course). I suppose it depends on how close to $135 it all ends up. At least you have a face to talk to and a torch to feel before making your final decision. Good luck.

here are the shameful pictures im going easy on my self though considering i have no experience with welding pretty much

what would be the correct procedure to get rid of these welds and prep the aluminium for welding again?

as u can see at roughly 50amps im getting huge amounts of penetration someone online gave me a great idea and that was to use stainless steel angle behind the sections to be welded which i think would have helped a crap load

Originally Posted by gazza2009au

here are the shameful pictures im going easy on my self though considering i have no experience with welding pretty much

what would be the correct procedure to get rid of these welds and prep the aluminium for welding again?

as u can see at roughly 50amps im getting huge amounts of penetration someone online gave me a great idea and that was to use stainless steel angle behind the sections to be welded which i think would have helped a crap load

Gazza, I got some good news and some bad news.
Good news is that those welds are not what I would term hideous, given your experience levels.
Bad news is, you really need to improve your fit up of the components.
What I see, looking at those welds is a lack of directional control and poor manipulation of the torch, compounded by not actually achieving a true corner to corner joint. It appears you have cut the plates with a jigsaw or bandsaw - GOOD. When you fit the pieces, you need to achieve a meeting of the two inner corners with no gaps and then tack them at probably 50mm intervals so they maintain alignment while you weld them. This is best done by setting your pre flow to zero, amps to around 150, pulse off and no up or down slope. Holding the torch with the tungsten nearly touching and giving a quick press of the button - experience will guide you as to how long to hold for. If the fit up is good and the material clean, the two edges will fuse nicely into a tack. Strangely, the 150 amps seems to not vary whether tacking 1.6, or 3mm sheets, just the on time. You can even gently tap the tacks with a small hammer to really close up any remaining gaps.
Assuming 1.6mm material. Which is what you used I think.
Now, set your welder to around 60 to 65 amps, this will vary between welders, but remember, Ally needs heat - get in, get out quickly, get yourself comfortable and push the button. Watch the arc and the puddle, angle your torch up/down in order to balance the heat input and cleaning evenly on both edges and keep your arc short, a long arc heats too widely. Nice shiny puddle? Good, add a dab of filler and retract the filler, but not outside the shielding gas envelope, keep the torch close and steady, move forward, another dab, forward again, repeat, repeat repeat. If the width of the puddle seems to be getting away from you, either add more filler or let go of the button. Filler cools the puddle, as does stopping the arc. It is often easier to weld towards yourself than across when doing this as you can get your line of sight where it suits you best. You should be left with a nice even bead that is shiny with evenly spaced ripples. This takes time and practice. You will get penetration on the inside of the joint, this is normal. I wouldn't worry about a backing angle as this really only masks the problems you are having. I would seriously consider working more with 2.5 or 3mm at this stage though. You really need to practice before attempting jobs that will be on show so that you can get your parameters and technique down pat. And don't forget to breathe! I would probably drop down to 2.4mm filler wire when welding 1.6 or 2mm at this stage to try and stack the deck in your favour a bit more.
On 1.6mm material, you should not need to grind back in order to rework the joint if using a corner to corner joint. Either you will have a lack of fusion on one side that you can revisit and fuse in, or you will have a hole that you need to fill. Otherwise, if you need to grind back sheet metal type work, use a flap disc sparingly - you used Ally for its appearance and you don't want grind marks all over it. Grinder use and manipulation is a skill all of its own.
Did I suggest trying to do a TAFE course before? If not, I suggest it now, you will learn a lot and get your game on far quicker than by me of anyone else trying to teach via internet. The biggest lesson in all welding is learning to read the puddle, sounds and sights, then interpreting them. This applies to gas, stick, mig and tig welding equally.

thanks for the help karl i appreciate it, i will try as u mention and weld back to front when i get the new torch and gas

i know my fit up sucks its a combination of thing, i dont have a work bench outdoors big enough to cut the 8x4 sheet on so some pieces are 1-2mm longer than others and my jigsaw crab walks lol so that didnt help either, i just assumed i could fill any small gaps with weld i wasnt trying to make a master piece i knew it wasnt going to turn out flash but its giving me practice
i cant really do a tafe course due to problems so thats out of the question, i can run beads i just need to transfer that to anything im welding on i mostly get off track because my hand isnt positioned like running a bead on flat aluminium, with this live bait tank my hand wonders back and forth but if i do as u mentioned and weld back to front this might solve my problem

Although not a particularly elegant solution, a permanent backing would make things easier just to get the job done and would result in less leaks in your tank: put a piece of aluminium angle on the inside of those edges. This would act as a backing to trap the argon a bit better, fill some of your gaps caused by poor fit up and give you a bit more cross-sectional thickness to weld on. 25x25x1.2 angle (don't get anodised stuff) is cheap as chips. Use it for practice too - if you can consistently join 1.2mm ally nicely then it's pretty safe to assume you've mastered puddle control! Personally, I'd be using 2.4mm filler for what you're trying to do.
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