Thread: Unimig multi 250 with separate wire feeder

Originally Posted by Vernonv

Karl, a couple of points in regard to your post. This is not an industrial installation. This is not a 3 phase installation.
I am well aware of that and have made the distinction on several occasions.
However an Ampere is an Ampere and it matters not the number of phases in which they arrive.

He will NEVER be running the full 64 amps the SOCKETS are capable of supplying because the BREAKER is only rated at 32 amps and will trip, so your calculation is pointless.
True, but with a couple of qualifications. Firstly, my main point was that this "sparky" had no idea of proper procedures or else he would not have completed this task in this manner. Secondly, I quoted my figures at 10M from the meter box, if this were increased to 20M them 10MM wiring would be required for even a 32A service.
Before anyone compares this to the wiring of a 3 Phase line, the 5X surge current does not apply for 3 Phase motors, so as will be noted by many here, they are not wired using 10MM wiring.
Thirdly, it is my understanding that the rules are, one outlet, one breaker for outlets of this type. There have been many previous posts regarding 15A outlets where the rule of one outlet, one breaker was applied by their sparkies.

This is a domestic, single phase install where more often than not only one piece of equipment will be running at any one time and will be running at NOWHERE near full 32amps.
I am glad you agree with me that the 32A outlet was not required.

Macmac, it's obvious by some of the info/advice given here that you are not dealing with people who use or understand the wiring rules (and I'm the first to admit I'm very, very rusty in that regard), so if you are concerned, approach your mate and seek clarification, but I would do it diplomatically. There's no point peeing off a mate (especially a sparky mate ) over what a bunch of anonymous people are speculating about in some internet forum.

I did actually suggest to get clarification from a regulatory body in my very first post.
As to my/our anonymity. Some are more anonymous than others.
You are also making the asumption that clarification/ expert advice has not been sought by one of us.

My intent is not to denigrate or argue with forum members, rather I would prefer to point out an issue that needs resolution, backed up with a fair degree of experience and common sense, hence the use of terms such as "questionable job"
At the end of the day.

• Will running a 15A welder on 4mm wire be a problem - no.
• Is there a major likelihood of more than one device running at the same time - no.
• Has this job been carried out in a questionable fashion - YES

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

I am well aware of that and have made the distinction on several occasions.
However an Ampere is an Ampere and it matters not the number of phases in which they arrive.

True, but they (single phase/3 phase, industrial/domestic) are treated differently as far as the wiring rules are concerned.

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

True, but with a couple of qualifications. Firstly, my main point was that this "sparky" had no idea of proper procedures or else he would not have completed this task in this manner.

What "proper procedures"? Again you are making assumptions about what YOU think the "proper procedure" are. All that matters is whether what he has done complies with the wiring rules.

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

Secondly, I quoted my figures at 10M from the meter box, if this were increased to 20M them 10MM wiring would be required for even a 32A service.
Before anyone compares this to the wiring of a 3 Phase line, the 5X surge current does not apply for 3 Phase motors, so as will be noted by many here, they are not wired using 10MM wiring.

Still a pointless calculation as the circuit is protected by a 32 amp CB and will NEVER carry 64 amps.

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

Thirdly, it is my understanding that the rules are, one outlet, one breaker for outlets of this type. There have been many previous posts regarding 15A outlets where the rule of one outlet, one breaker was applied by their sparkies.

I believe you are wrong on both counts. I currently only have access to an older draft of the wiring rules (dated 2006) and it says I can have up to 3 x 15amp sockets or 2 x 20 amp sockets (can't find 32 amp) per circuit depending on the installtion method, cable size and breaker used.

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

I am glad you agree with me that the 32A outlet was not required.

Are you putting words into my mouth? He NEEDS at least a 15 amp socket, but there is nothing stopping him from having a 20 or 32 amp socket ... maybe his sparkie is forward thinking and has given Macmac the ability to buy bigger and better machines, without needing to get more sockets put in.

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

You are also making the asumption that clarification/ expert advice has not been sought by one of us.

Yes I am, and to date, from the responses Macmac has recieved, I'm pretty confident my assumtion is correct.

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

... rather I would prefer to point out an issue that needs resolution, backed up with a fair degree of experience and common sense, hence the use of terms such as "questionable job"

It's fine to question, but there is a lot of "opinion" being passed off as fact. What you see as an "issue that needs resolution" and your experience and common sense are not terribly relevant unless you are speaking directly from the wiring rules, as at the end of the day, they are what NEEDS to be followed.

Originally Posted by Vernonv

the circuit is protected by a 32 amp CB and will NEVER carry 64 amps.

Actually the circuit will carry 64amps for almost 30 seconds before tripping.

Originally Posted by RustyArc

Actually the circuit will carry 64amps for almost 30 seconds before tripping.

Yes, I meant continuously. Either way a sparkie wouldn't calculate that he needs to install 10mm2 cable based on the fact that the 32 amp breaker could pass 64 amps for 30 seconds.

Hi, just talk to my sparkie friend and this is what he said to me. In long term, the ordinary 15amp outlet will get yellow and possibly crack due to frequent huge current surge. However, I can have industrial grade 15amp outlet which is similar to the one I have now but by paying another $4.00 extra each I can have 32amp instead so he just bought me 32amps at which I may fully utilize them by having other machine in future which may need more amps. He repeatedly tell me that there's no problem by having two machine switch on at the same time as long as one machine is in standby mode while the other one is working. Regarding to D circuit breaker, he said he won't use them at all in domestic installation and he will only use them if the machine specified only like big electrical motor.
Actually he is a bit angry when I question him regarding the compliance of his installation but I bought him a beer to cool him this afternoon. So friendship still ties up as long as beer talk.
I have no intention to create any quarrel in this forum so hopefully guys u don't take this topic so serious. I apologies if I create some. Thanks again for help.
Cheers Phil

Originally Posted by macmac

Regarding to D circuit breaker, he said he won't use them at all in domestic installation and he will only use them if the machine specified only like big electrical motor.

Keep this in the back of your mind as you may need to get that breaker changed over to a D curve. At my last place and where I'm currently residing, I had all new powerboards, wiring, power points installed and in both situations, I had to eventually get the C curve breaker that supplies my 20amp MIG changed over, as after a while the C curve breaker couldn't handle the inrush currents when starting a weld.

Oh and whilst I'm at it, I have a 25 amp power point in place to supply a 20 amp welder of which will also run quite happily on a 10 amp power point as well without popping breakers or getting the wires warm and in my wood shed, a double 15 amp to supply my jointer and thicky to save me unplugging and plugging them back in.

Great to see discussion and resolution of the issue. The wiring rules allow sparkys to consider the aggregate load on circuits, if they didn't, you could only have 2 power points on any ordinary GPO circuit, as 2 x 10A points would exceed the 16A or 20A breaker. The fact is that loads vary, and are often used independently - an individual user in their workshop is not going to fire up a welder and plasma cutter simultaneously.

As mentioned a few times, the breaker is sized to match the cabling and protect it from excessive heating. On that basis, it doesn't matter how many outlets are on the particular circuit, because if there are too many devices in operation simultaneously, the breaker will trip before there's any danger of the wiring failing, just as it does in a household situation where the breaker trips when you have a blow heater, jug and microwave going on the same circuit.

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

I am probably going to upset somebody here.



Are you sure that your "sparkie" is licenced? If so, he wont be for long if anyone checks this out.

• He has installed two 32A (64A!!!) outlets on a circuit that is only rated at 32A
• It matters not that you are only drawing 15A from this outlet, you could draw the full amount, therefore all must be specced to handle this.
• All this using 4mm wire, which is marginal for one 32A outlet
• There should be a separate circuit breaker for every outlet at this level - even for 3 Phase
• Just how much power is coming into your house from the service lines? let's say you have 100A total available. Take off the 64A potentially drawn by these outlets and you are left with only 36A to run your entire house that may have electric hot water (15A), electric stove (20A), electric jug (10A). See the problem.
• NONE of this shenanigans was required, all you needed was a 15A outlet that you could have used for something else.

I would have grave misgivings regarding anyone who tried to sell me a 32A 240V outlet to do a job easily handled by a 15A outlet. Did you actually question him as to his reasons for using 32A outlets? You need to ask some very serious questions about your "sparkie" Possibly even contact your local electrical regulatory authority as this is sub standard and you may as well have done the work yourself.

Karl,
As far as I know, your post sums it up perfectly. Whether its an industrial application or not is irrelevant, the rules are the rules and said "sparkie" sounds like he does not know the wiring rules. As far as I know, 15A or bigger outlets WILL be dedicated outlets i.e. separate breakers. The comparison someone made with 10A circuits is totally invalid from a regulatory standpoint.

MacMac,
I would get a proper sparkie in and have it checked out.