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16th August 2012, 08:35 AM #31
Karl, a couple of points in regard to your post. This is not an industrial installation. This is not a 3 phase installation.
He will NEVER be running the full 64 amps the SOCKETS are capable of supplying because the BREAKER is only rated at 32 amps and will trip, so your calculation is pointless.
This is a domestic, single phase install where more often than not only one piece of equipment will be running at any one time and will be running at NOWHERE near full 32amps.
Macmac, it's obvious by some of the info/advice given here that you are not dealing with people who use or understand the wiring rules (and I'm the first to admit I'm very, very rusty in that regard), so if you are concerned, approach your mate and seek clarification, but I would do it diplomatically. There's no point peeing off a mate (especially a sparky mate ) over what a bunch of anonymous people are speculating about in some internet forum.Cheers.
Vernon.
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16th August 2012, 10:20 AM #32GOLD MEMBER
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I did actually suggest to get clarification from a regulatory body in my very first post.
As to my/our anonymity. Some are more anonymous than others.
You are also making the asumption that clarification/ expert advice has not been sought by one of us.
My intent is not to denigrate or argue with forum members, rather I would prefer to point out an issue that needs resolution, backed up with a fair degree of experience and common sense, hence the use of terms such as "questionable job"
At the end of the day.
- Will running a 15A welder on 4mm wire be a problem - no.
- Is there a major likelihood of more than one device running at the same time - no.
- Has this job been carried out in a questionable fashion - YES
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16th August 2012, 10:51 AM #33
True, but they (single phase/3 phase, industrial/domestic) are treated differently as far as the wiring rules are concerned.
What "proper procedures"? Again you are making assumptions about what YOU think the "proper procedure" are. All that matters is whether what he has done complies with the wiring rules.
Still a pointless calculation as the circuit is protected by a 32 amp CB and will NEVER carry 64 amps.
I believe you are wrong on both counts. I currently only have access to an older draft of the wiring rules (dated 2006) and it says I can have up to 3 x 15amp sockets or 2 x 20 amp sockets (can't find 32 amp) per circuit depending on the installtion method, cable size and breaker used.
Are you putting words into my mouth? He NEEDS at least a 15 amp socket, but there is nothing stopping him from having a 20 or 32 amp socket ... maybe his sparkie is forward thinking and has given Macmac the ability to buy bigger and better machines, without needing to get more sockets put in.
Yes I am, and to date, from the responses Macmac has recieved, I'm pretty confident my assumtion is correct.
It's fine to question, but there is a lot of "opinion" being passed off as fact. What you see as an "issue that needs resolution" and your experience and common sense are not terribly relevant unless you are speaking directly from the wiring rules, as at the end of the day, they are what NEEDS to be followed.Cheers.
Vernon.
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16th August 2012, 11:29 AM #34SENIOR MEMBER
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16th August 2012, 11:31 AM #35Cheers.
Vernon.
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16th August 2012, 11:27 PM #36Intermediate Member
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Hi, just talk to my sparkie friend and this is what he said to me. In long term, the ordinary 15amp outlet will get yellow and possibly crack due to frequent huge current surge. However, I can have industrial grade 15amp outlet which is similar to the one I have now but by paying another $4.00 extra each I can have 32amp instead so he just bought me 32amps at which I may fully utilize them by having other machine in future which may need more amps. He repeatedly tell me that there's no problem by having two machine switch on at the same time as long as one machine is in standby mode while the other one is working. Regarding to D circuit breaker, he said he won't use them at all in domestic installation and he will only use them if the machine specified only like big electrical motor.
Actually he is a bit angry when I question him regarding the compliance of his installation but I bought him a beer to cool him this afternoon. So friendship still ties up as long as beer talk.
I have no intention to create any quarrel in this forum so hopefully guys u don't take this topic so serious. I apologies if I create some. Thanks again for help.
Cheers Phil
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17th August 2012, 12:00 AM #37
Keep this in the back of your mind as you may need to get that breaker changed over to a D curve. At my last place and where I'm currently residing, I had all new powerboards, wiring, power points installed and in both situations, I had to eventually get the C curve breaker that supplies my 20amp MIG changed over, as after a while the C curve breaker couldn't handle the inrush currents when starting a weld.
Oh and whilst I'm at it, I have a 25 amp power point in place to supply a 20 amp welder of which will also run quite happily on a 10 amp power point as well without popping breakers or getting the wires warm and in my wood shed, a double 15 amp to supply my jointer and thicky to save me unplugging and plugging them back in.Cheers
DJ
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17th August 2012, 01:05 AM #38SENIOR MEMBER
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Great to see discussion and resolution of the issue. The wiring rules allow sparkys to consider the aggregate load on circuits, if they didn't, you could only have 2 power points on any ordinary GPO circuit, as 2 x 10A points would exceed the 16A or 20A breaker. The fact is that loads vary, and are often used independently - an individual user in their workshop is not going to fire up a welder and plasma cutter simultaneously.
As mentioned a few times, the breaker is sized to match the cabling and protect it from excessive heating. On that basis, it doesn't matter how many outlets are on the particular circuit, because if there are too many devices in operation simultaneously, the breaker will trip before there's any danger of the wiring failing, just as it does in a household situation where the breaker trips when you have a blow heater, jug and microwave going on the same circuit.
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18th August 2012, 03:55 PM #39Retired
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Karl,
As far as I know, your post sums it up perfectly. Whether its an industrial application or not is irrelevant, the rules are the rules and said "sparkie" sounds like he does not know the wiring rules. As far as I know, 15A or bigger outlets WILL be dedicated outlets i.e. separate breakers. The comparison someone made with 10A circuits is totally invalid from a regulatory standpoint.
MacMac,
I would get a proper sparkie in and have it checked out.
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