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  1. #61
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    Default Cut -out in table

    Quote Originally Posted by DSEL74 View Post
    Also I have been wondering for ages what the halfmoon cut out on the belt side of the table is for? The early ones don't have it.
    Hi,

    The HAFCO manual says:

    "TABLE: Is cast iron, carefully ribbed for strength and accurately machined to provide a true working surface. It tilts smoothly on a graduated quadrant and is instantly secured at any angle up to 30° to right or 10° to left by a convenient locking lever. One edge of the table is slightly relieved on the drive side to provide ample hand room when securing blades in the lower vice. An aluminium insert is fitted in the table centre to prevent damage to blades."

    I can't see the cut-out doing much in that regard as it is easier to secure blades from the open left hand side away from the belts. However, I think that is the cut-out that you are referring to?

    Regards

    David

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  3. #62
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthorrhoeas View Post
    Hi,

    The HAFCO manual says:

    "TABLE: Is cast iron, carefully ribbed for strength and accurately machined to provide a true working surface. It tilts smoothly on a graduated quadrant and is instantly secured at any angle up to 30° to right or 10° to left by a convenient locking lever. One edge of the table is slightly relieved on the drive side to provide ample hand room when securing blades in the lower vice. An aluminium insert is fitted in the table centre to prevent damage to blades."

    I can't see the cut-out doing much in that regard as it is easier to secure blades from the open left hand side away from the belts. However, I think that is the cut-out that you are referring to?

    Regards

    David


    That is what i'm talking about. Only thing I could come up with is maybe if you tiled the table down to the right it may allow more angle without contacting the drive pulleys. I haven't seen one in the flesh to know.
    …..Live a Quiet Life & Work with your Hands

  4. #63
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthorrhoeas View Post
    Can I just double check your spring wire diameter though. Is it exactly 2 mm? My vernier calipers showed 2.4 mm.
    Sorry for the delay, and by the sounds of it, what you have seems to be doing the job anyway, but for what it's worth I double checked, and it is 2mm not 2.4mm. David if the springs are applying sufficient tension without too much resistance, and still have some room to compress with the shaft pulled all the way down, then I think you will be fine, my only concern would be having the ends of the springs not closed and ground (as John has already pointed out there is the potential for wear if this is not the case). Nice to hear it is cutting smoothly for you (like you said they really don't struggle with thicker material, and I love the lack of vibration).


    Quote Originally Posted by DSEL74 View Post
    Also I have been wondering for ages what the halfmoon cut out on the belt side of the table is for? The early ones don't have it.

    Regarding the cut out in the table, the obvious answer is to allow clearance with the pulley (although it is only designed to tilt 10 degrees down in that direction), but I have wondered if it wasn't also in place to allow for other accessories (in some way).

    For instance, this router attachment was an optional extra with the Walker Turner

    router attachment.jpg

    The gooseneck is designed to pivot, and the long shaft down the gooseneck makes tooling quickly interchangeable.

    I had considered early on making a bracket to accept a trim router, but as with all things that are not a priority, it's on the maybe do list.

    Cheers,

    Camo

    P.S. Walker Turner produced a book that talked about the bandsaw and the scroll saw (specifically focussing on this type of scroll saw), probably worth at least a brief look Walker-Turner Co., Inc. - Publication Reprints - The Band Saw and Jig Saw Their Use and Applications | VintageMachinery.org

  5. #64
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    Default Thanks, helpul as always

    Quote Originally Posted by camoz View Post
    Sorry for the delay, and by the sounds of it, what you have seems to be doing the job anyway, but for what it's worth I double checked, and it is 2mm not 2.4mm. David if the springs are applying sufficient tension without too much resistance, and still have some room to compress with the shaft pulled all the way down, then I think you will be fine, my only concern would be having the ends of the springs not closed and ground (as John has already pointed out there is the potential for wear if this is not the case). Nice to hear it is cutting smoothly for you (like you said they really don't struggle with thicker material, and I love the lack of vibration).





    Regarding the cut out in the table, the obvious answer is to allow clearance with the pulley (although it is only designed to tilt 10 degrees down in that direction), but I have wondered if it wasn't also in place to allow for other accessories (in some way).

    For instance, this router attachment was an optional extra with the Walker Turner

    router attachment.jpg

    The gooseneck is designed to pivot, and the long shaft down the gooseneck makes tooling quickly interchangeable.

    I had considered early on making a bracket to accept a trim router, but as with all things that are not a priority, it's on the maybe do list.

    Cheers,

    Camo

    P.S. Walker Turner produced a book that talked about the bandsaw and the scroll saw (specifically focussing on this type of scroll saw), probably worth at least a brief look Walker-Turner Co., Inc. - Publication Reprints - The Band Saw and Jig Saw Their Use and Applications | VintageMachinery.org

    Thanks Camo,

    I'll read the 37 Walker-Turner manual pages with interest. I suspect that the OH&S issues of an overhead router would be of concern without guards that would make it difficult to use.

    In regard to the spring it does appear that the exact specifications are not too critical since the spring in my machine was different wire thickness and length to that in your machine. The combination of two springs that I have used (both have closed and ground ends) approximates to yours in length but slightly thicker wire. The springs from South Australia would have to be cut, closed and ground to length but are somewhat closer to your wire in diameter. I do not expect to use my saw so extensively that I break a spring but it would seem that if I did it will be relatively easy to find a replacement. And, this thread has added considerably to the information on these saws that can assist others to conserve and use them.

    Regards

    David

  6. #65
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    Default Scroll Saw Table Insert

    Hi David, My apologies for not checking this thread earlier for the sizes for the table insert. I would probably just laser cut the inserts out of acrylic with a nominal thickness of 2mm and then a 1 inch dia, 6mm thick disc that would get glued on underneath the 2 mm acrylic (to give it support). I just need you to tell me what size dia. hole you want in the middle (if it is in fact the middle of the disc that you want the hole?) Thanks. Regards, Ben.

  7. #66
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben + View Post
    Hi David, My apologies for not checking this thread earlier for the sizes for the table insert. I would probably just laser cut the inserts out of acrylic with a nominal thickness of 2mm and then a 1 inch dia, 6mm thick disc that would get glued on underneath the 2 mm acrylic (to give it support). I just need you to tell me what size dia. hole you want in the middle (if it is in fact the middle of the disc that you want the hole?) Thanks. Regards, Ben.
    Hi Ben,

    I've PM'd you on this to explain that they may be best without a hole so I can drill one the size I need.

    Regards

    David

  8. #67
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    Default

    Courtesy of Henry Black I now have a Woodfast 24” Scroll Saw, from a deceased wood turner. Boy, this machine is heavy, according to the specifications 136kg. Checking out the only Hegner that is close to equivalent ($4.7k to buy), we are looking at only 45kg. As far as I can ascertain the machine is complete and everything working, including the air blower, and aluminium table insert – but no stand, and no bolt holes in the base for attaching to a stand, must be the bench model.
    DSCF7973.jpg
    The pulley cover is the same as Camo’s, so I guess the same vintage.
    DSCF7975.jpg
    The table rotates +30/-10 (compared to the +45/-10 of the specifications kindly scanned and provided earlier in this thread, and also the specs of the earlier Hyco machine). The motor is not original (does not quite fit, only has 3 bolts holding it on), a BGE single phase 1/4hp 1440 rpm. Any idea when they stopped making these?
    DSCF7970.jpg
    The crankcase oil is at correct level and looks nice and clear, so I might leave changing this for a bit while I fiddle with tension settings. The table is marked JS 144, does that indicate something? The Vee Belt is marked A 31 DUNLOP Maxpower WEDGROPE 20 L(?), looks to be in good condition – how long ago did Dunlop stop making industrial products? The table had some light rust/grime and generally a liberal amount of saw dust and some grimy grease on bolts, suggesting not used for some time - machine looks to be in good lightly used condition. This is my first piece of woodworking machinery - I am a hand tool user, but cutting out 1” hardwood saw handles with coping and fret saws is not too appealing.

    In testing on hard 1” She-Oak (using Ryobi 15tpi regular tooth blade that was in the saw), seems to work well despite motor being lower power than the 1/3hp specification. There is some vibration in use (2nd slowest speed), but nothing compared to the 2 scroll saws I have so far briefly used. a small one of I guess recent Asian manufacture at the Melbourne Backsaw making workshop had to be clamped down to the bench to be usable, and was fairly slow – but this was the first time I used a scroll saw, and I was grateful to save time. I also recently picked up a 16” Hafco Metalmaster 2 speed (unknown age, but seemingly in reasonable nick) that seemed ok when I first used it, but after I started to fiddle with it, now makes a racket and is quite slow; largely operator error I suspect.

    I do not know what “vibration free” means with a scroll saw. As an example on the Woodfast, a 2” engineers square on the table does not move when being used (saw is on a solid bench). If someone in Sydney has one I will appreciate the opportunity of comparison. There is some noise from the up & down mechanism, not sure if this is “normal”.

    Those who have contributed earlier to this thread have covered most issues, I only have a few questions:

    1. What grease is used for the Spring Head? I need to get a grease gun as well
    2. The specifications indicate the use of 6.5” pinned blades, and a box of a wide range of pinned blades came with the machine. There was a 135mm 15 tpi plain blade in the machine when acquired that worked fine on a saw handle. For cutting 1” hardwood curves do experienced users use a pinned (tougher?) blade or a plain (pinless) blade?
    3. Does a bench mounted machine vibrate more than a machine on a stand?
    4. There is fine dust created, anyone have pictures of a dust collection setup?
    5. The instructions indicate a vice spanner came with the machine. Does anyone have a picture, and where is it used?


    I look forward to getting this working at its best.

    Cheers
    Peter

    ps one reason for getting a scroll saw was to have at least one available for backsaw making workshops - but I don't think this one is going anywhere, unless I get a forklift!

  9. #68
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    Default Congratulations

    Congratulations Peter,

    These are a great machine, I have found. Mine, on the stand, weighs about 165 kg so they certainly are no lightweight. I'm in Brisbane so can't offer you an immediate comparison (unless you visit our city some time) but your vibration sounds OK - mine does not really vibrate at all but does make some slight noise from the up and and down movement. the machine is so quiet in operation that I don't need hearing protection, which is good when it is hot.

    I am far from an experienced user - other contributors on this thread know far more than I do. I have used it to cut 18mm ply and quite complex shapes in 20 mm very old Blackbean without any problems - though the Blackbean was very hard and so it was slow.

    Mine came with a very black grease in the spring head and I am using a standard industrial black grease - but will have to find the cartridge to look up the name for you.

    I do not have dust collection set up for the machine - it doesn't produce much. I am planning a ducted set-up so will probably run a line to it when I do that, but mine really needs a small fan or blower more than a dust collector as it doesn't have that component.

    My unit did not come with any intact blades - only a few broken ends of pinned blades like standard coping saw blades. I bought some pinless blades to try but so far have not found them to stay in place long enough to be of use so I am using the 15 tpi pinned blades as standard. My failure with the pinless blades is probably (me) operator error as others here have said that they use them.

    My machine did not come with a spanner so I cannot assist with that question. I haven't found the need for one so far.

    Happy sawing.

    Regards

    David

  10. #69
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    Default

    Peter,

    Welcome to the club, congratulations, you really won’t be disappointed. I got a chance to have a look over my machine today, and aside from the holes to bolt to the stand, it certainly looks like the same model (although to be honest your photo is a bit blury). You certainly have done well with the blower working and although I am sure it is nothing special, I wouldn’t mind seeing a picture of the aluminium insert when you get a chance.

    I am not in Sydney unfortunately, so a bit hard for a demo, but this is a video of a coin test, which will hopefully give you an idea of what to expect (vibration, and noise, this was recorded using the iPhone, so the audio isn't great, it's even quiter in real life, as you can tell by how loud the on switch sounds in the video), they definitely run smooth and quiet. Given yours is bench mounted, my one probably has a little less vibration, due to the weight of the stand (although the stand is only sheet metal), but also the rubber feet, I would recommend placing a rubber mat/pieces under the machine when you are set up.



    These are the answers I would give to your questions:


    1. A general bearing grease should be fine – no real heat buildup or major pressures in this component
    2. Whatever blade works for you, I broke a thin bandsaw blade, and have cut that into small sections and it is working fine for my applications, assuming you have the same clamping mechanisms, pinned and pinless will do fine. These machines were not designed to handle the super thin blades (the type that cut in all directions), so you will probably snap those fairly easily
    3. I have covered that question above
    4. No pictures, all I have previously done when doing a large project is hookup the dust extractor with a funnelled head
    5. I do not have the spanner, but I would say that the purpose was for loosening the bolt at the base of the gooseneck or for removing the jigsaw head for interchanging with other accessories (if memory serves me they are both the same size bolt). The gooseneck has 2 bolts holding it down, loosening the easily accessible one enables the neck to be pivoted out of the way, as the lower shaft was also designed to hold a file, etc., and the head could be interchanged with other tooling (eg router, although I have never seen this on this specific model)


    Peter, I try to avoid giving advice unless asked, but I would warn you that if this machine has an Achilles heal, it would be the components that are designed to be permanently oiled. With each stroke, there is a piece that is designed to slap the oil and splash it all over the parts, so the engineers obviously considered these parts to be continuously oiled. It is good that the oil levels are good and appear clean, but personally I would not trust that the correct oil is being used, and that it has not just been topped up recently. At the very least I would buy 1 litre of oil (it is available from motorbike shops, details of the oil in previous posts), unscrew the oil cup and tip your machine over and drain out what is in it, pour some new oil in, run the machine for a while and empty that oil out and finally top it up again with fresh oil. IMO the cost of the oil is a small investment to ensure you will get a long life out of this machine (you are definitely not going to be able to get replacement parts).

    Lastly as you mentioned that the motor was only being held down by 3 bolts, if you suspect the vibration is more than it should be, it might be a good idea to check that the pulleys are coplanar (if the motor and hence the pulley is out of line with the front pulley, this will add unnecessary stresses, and cause vibration).
    Thanks for showing the machine, and if I can be of any help, don’t hesitate to ask.

    Cheers,

    Camo

  11. #70
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    Default

    Thanks for the info and assistance David and Camo, very helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthorrhoeas View Post
    … your vibration sounds OK - mine does not really vibrate at all but does make some slight noise from the up and down movement. The machine is so quiet in operation that I don't need hearing protection, which is good when it is hot.
    Quote Originally Posted by camoz View Post
    … this is a video of a coin test, which will hopefully give you an idea of what to expect (vibration, and noise, this was recorded using the iPhone, so the audio isn't great, it's even quieter in real life, as you can tell by how loud the on switch sounds in the video), they definitely run smooth and quiet. Given yours is bench mounted, my one probably has a little less vibration, due to the weight of the stand (although the stand is only sheet metal), but also the rubber feet, I would recommend placing a rubber mat/pieces under the machine when you are set up.
    Pacing a rubber mat under the machine seems to generate some argument. I placed a floor mat under the machine to facilitate moving around the bench, and this made vibration worse; from looking at messages on Web fora, it seems that rubber makes the stand vibrate less, but the machine more, i.e. as for a car engine where the rubber mounts reduce vibration in the body. Some indicated that their scroll saw vibrated less when placed on the concrete floor, i.e. mass is the answer. I have the machine on a heavy work bench, which is on a concrete floor. This video provides an indication of noise and vibration.


    I will take your advice and replace the oil, when I can find at outlet with stock, with PENRITE MC-4ST HD 50, which thankfully comes in a 1 litre bottle. Hopefully I can avoid taking off the crankcase cover, and thereby needing to re-gasket.
    Quote Originally Posted by camoz View Post
    You certainly have done well with the blower working and although I am sure it is nothing special, I wouldn’t mind seeing a picture of the aluminium insert when you get a chance.
    Here are pictures of the insert, I hope they are useful. The dimensions are diameter 30.65mm, i.e. a tight fit in the hole (needs to be knocked in), thickness 1.63mm. I suspect this is not original judging by the crude cut-outs, and the rough surface on the edges (looks to be filed to fit). The depth of the hole in the table is 2.25mm, so insert could be thicker than my one. The on-edge photo seems to show a bevel, this is a caused by the shadow, edge is square.
    DSCF7993.jpgDSCF7992.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthorrhoeas View Post
    I do not have dust collection set up for the machine - it doesn't produce much. I am planning a ducted set-up so will probably run a line to it when I do that, but mine really needs a small fan or blower more than a dust collector as it doesn't have that component.
    The air blower on mine is very soft, but that is all that is needed – a blower may be too much. I note that newer saws have a dust outlet on the front (to suck the dust down from above I guess), I will set up a nozzle from the rear as close to the blade as I can to see if I can reduce the amount of saw dust on the table and falling down into the machine. I acquire allergies, so need to be careful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthorrhoeas View Post
    My unit did not come with any intact blades - only a few broken ends of pinned blades like standard coping saw blades. I bought some pinless blades to try but so far have not found them to stay in place long enough to be of use so I am using the 15 tpi pinned blades as standard. My failure with the pinless blades is probably (me) operator error as others here have said that they use them.
    So far the clamp really grips the pinless blades (the clamp has holes on each side for pinned blades, is yours the same? I think your machine is newer, looking at the pulley cover). If you upload close pictures of your clamp I can compare.
    On another mater, looking back through the thread I notice your belt is 3/8” x 34”. Mine is A 31, or ½” x 33” (31 must be inside measurement). I wonder if the pulleys are the same on all models?
    Quote Originally Posted by camoz View Post
    Lastly as you mentioned that the motor was only being held down by 3 bolts, if you suspect the vibration is more than it should be, it might be a good idea to check that the pulleys are coplanar (if the motor and hence the pulley is out of line with the front pulley, this will add unnecessary stresses, and cause vibration).
    Checking the pulleys:
    Running a straight edge across the pulleys I discover the motor pulleys are (probably) not co-planar. Running a straight edge across the crankcase pulleys the motor pulleys are around 3mm away from the straight edge at the near side and 5mm away at the far side. Some of the gross difference is due to the different shape of the pulleys. The motor and [pulleys look to have been in this position for a long time.
    I hope this makes sense, and I am measuring correctly? The 4 sheaves of the crankcase pulley are 1mm wider than the 4 sheaves of the motor pulleys. However I am not sure the pulley (mis?)alignment is a problem – the motor is steady; and, the drive belt seems to run true. I hope the pictures help to explain the situation.
    DSCF7986.jpg DSCF7989.jpg
    Cheers
    Peter

  12. #71
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    Nov 2011
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    Default

    Hi Peter,

    Thanks for the detail on the insert, like you say possibly not original, but still good to see (something ultimately I need to rectify, I am thinking brass). The video and picture of the pulley certainly clarifies things.

    I am fairly confident that you have the same era and model machine as mine, same belt cover, same table, same pulleys, same belt length, same hold down, same blade clamp, etc. etc., like you say mine has holes to be bolted down and the stand.

    You make a valid point with the rubber, and if you tried it and found it only introduced more vibration then this is clearly not the difference. I guess the questions are, is what you have acceptable vibration, and is the difference due to the fact that your machine is not mounted to a stand, or something else. Unfortunately I did not try my one prior to attaching it to the stand, so I can't answer what impact the stand has.

    For the sake of 5 min. it might be worth adjusting the motor pulleys so they are coplanar. This is a simple process and even easier with your machine, due to the fact that you have access to the underside, I can see from the photo that you have plenty of room for adjustment with the motor, so no issues (simply take the belt off first, loosen the bolts a bit, and tap the motor over with a rubber mallet or block until you are in line). It might help to put the machine up on blocks on your bench so you don't have to tilt the machine to get access to the nuts underneath. It may not make a difference, but I have fixed a lot of issues with vibration in friends and family members' 14" bandsaws, simply by adjusting pulleys to coplanar.

    With that said at the end of the day it all comes down to what you are happy with, and how far down the hole you want to go.

    This is a picture of the oil that I used, I have found it in a few motorbike shops now, so it may be easier to source:

    sae50.jpgsae50back.jpg

    Regarding taking off the crankcase cover, if it needs to come off (personally I would remove it), a simple gasket goo will get you out of trouble, to be honest I don't know why I made such a fuss about this with mine, my solution worked, but given you don't need to take it apart often, it was complete overkill.

    Lastly this is a video of a coin test on my Stenner ABM Patternmakers saw, I think it shows what can be achieved with mass, taking away other elements that might introduce vibration. This saw is 5HP and turning an 18" 20 teeth blade (or should I say fan). At over 1 ton, it has mass, but it also has a very balanced motor and the blade bolts straight to the motor, so no pulleys or belts.

    If you look on the right side of the table you may be able to make out the 5c piece sitting up. I can start the machine, but some material, shut the machine down and the 5 cent does not move, try doing that with a modern cabinet saw.





    Cheers,

    Camo

  13. #72
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    Default

    In regards to 50 grade oil I used to buy it from Shell, it was called" straight 50" .usedta use it in an old truck to combat excessive oil comsumption but thats another story.
    cheers pat

  14. #73
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    Default it is a standard gear oil

    Yes it is a standard gear oil used in a lot of heavy machines. A nearby workshop buys it by the 200L for earthmoving machinery and gave me a couple of litres (to get rid of me?), so don't pay for "Harley" branding.

    Regards

    David

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthorrhoeas View Post
    so don't pay for "Harley" branding.
    I don't remember it being expensive. Please don't misunderstand, I am not suggesting the "Harley" brand has any special features, I just found it to be the one available in the motorbike shop, and a few others I looked in afterwards, and in a sensible quantity for what I needed.

    cheers,

    Camo

  16. #75
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    Default Harley branded oil and price

    Sorry Camo, did not intend to imply that you had suggested the branding was important. The machines need so little of it that the price is not particularly important anyway.

    My local motorbike service shop here in Yeerongpilly in Brisbane advertises that it services Harleys but they had never heard of the oil and did not even have the grade in any form. My post was just to emphasise that it is a standard gear oil used in large trucks and earthmoving machines so may be available cheaply from people who service such machines, whereas both the motorbike shop and my local servo just looked at me blankly when I asked for it.

    Regards

    David

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