Thread: DawnPost Drill - Dating Versions

Originally Posted by 2blast67

Both wheels measure 6" diameter and 36mm wide.

Thanks Ross.

Originally Posted by 2blast67

...6" diameter and 36mm wide.

Interesting. You're like me. If it's a round imperial measurement, I use inches. But when it comes to accurate measurements that aren't... I also switch to metric

Cheers, Vann.

THE BUYING SERVICE
Drill are Useful Articles on Any Farm
(CONDUCTED DY UNCLE WISEMAN.)

FREQUENTLY a farmer finds himself faced with the necessity for doing a Job for, which a more expensive tool Is needed, something In the nature of a machine for precision work. Cost of purchase is, perhaps, one of the greatest stumbling blocks to the acquisition of such a machine. Uncle
Wiseman Is now able to offer his country friends machine tools at reasonable prices.

Another machine In common use among blacksmiths Is tho Dawn combined bench or post drill. This sturdy little machine is designed to be fitted to either bench or post and Is admirably suited for the home workshop, both In efficiency and price, The head has a radial and vertical adjustment and gives a maximum clearance of 10-ln. between base and end of spindle. It Is hand fed, drills to the centre of 10-ln, circle, drills holes to l-ln. diameter and has a run of feed of 2-ln, Diameter of the spindle Is ?-ln., diameter of the pillar Is 1-ln., height of pillar 20-In., base 7 x 5-ln., and the weight of the maohlno Is 29-lb, Prlce Is 39/, Ask for No, 600.


The Dawn drilling machine, No, 611, Is of the post type, with gear-drlven fly-wheel, It Is larger than No. 600, ruggedly constructed, and carefully fitted, The steel spindles run in accurately reamed bearings, all gears being fully meshed,The machine is an automatic feeder, The strong body casting is heavily ribbed and the pillar supporting the sliding table is a solid bright steel bar instead of the usual light tubing.

The Dawn coupling connecting the main spindle to the feed screw engages the full circumference lnstead of the small pin on one side only, and embraces a ball-bearlng thrust race. Each machine is supplied with a heavy back board.
Further particulars are: Drills to 12-in. circle, drills holes to 11-ln. diameter, run of feed 3-ln., diameter of spindle ⅞-ln., diameter of pillar 1 ⅛-ln., weight 65-lb, Prlce Is 67/6.

The Dawn drilling maohlne, No, 616, as a post type, wlth gear-driven fly wheel and two speeds. It Is fitted with fast and loose pulley for belt drive if desired. Drills to centre of 16-in. clrcle, drills holes to 1 1/? in. diameter, run of feed 3 1/? in., run of table 15-in., diameter of spindle 1 ⅛ ln., diameter of pillar 1 1/? in., Weight 126-lb. Prlce for this model Is £6/13/6.

Thursday, 3 November 1938

Note the terminology used, GEARS, Fly-Wheel, Spindles, Pillar, Sliding Table, Coupling, Feed Screw, Ball Bearing Thrust Race, Back Board.



I always assumed that they were fixed directly to a post. It seems from reading this and some other information they came bolted to a board and the board was fixed to a suitable post or wall.

Uncle Wiseman used to import and sell Buffalo Post Drills and at the time of this article still deal in Buffalo products including forges.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

Note the terminology used, GEARS, Fly-Wheel, Spindles, Pillar, Sliding Table, Coupling, Feed Screw, Ball Bearing Thrust Race, Back Board.



I always assumed that they were fixed directly to a post. It seems from reading this and some other information they came bolted to a board and the board was fixed to a suitable post or wall.

Uncle Wiseman used to import and sell Buffalo Post Drills and at the time of this article still deal in Buffalo products including forges.

Uncle Wiseman indicates that all 611 models had a ball-bearing thrust bearing between the feed screw and the spindle. Mine has two concave/convex thrust plates nested together, fitted with the convex side uppermost. I have established that my drill is a transitional model, having the earlier type cam, and the later type flywheel. It appears that the thrust bearing transitioned from one form to another at some point also. Obviously, Uncle Wiseman was promoting the later type.

Originally Posted by mspil

Uncle Wiseman indicates that all 611 models had a ball-bearing thrust bearing between the feed screw and the spindle. Mine has two concave/convex thrust plates nested together, fitted with the convex side uppermost. I have established that my drill is a transitional model, having the earlier type cam, and the later type flywheel. It appears that the thrust bearing transitioned from one form to another at some point also. Obviously, Uncle Wiseman was promoting the later type.

The 611 was made between 1920-1950, they started out with the plates and later changed to bearings. Hard to date because many people changed them over as an easy swap.

The ad was dated 1938 so that would indicate that the thrust bearings were standard by this time. So far this is the only indication of any sort of time frame we have for the transition of the design from 1920-1950.


Mspil, I'm not sure what you mean later type fly-wheel? It is my understanding the fly-wheel was constant throughout.

I made up some labeled parts diagrams, please feel free to point out if I have mislabelled anything. I think I stole the photos from Vann's resto.

Dawn 611.Parts List.jpgSpindle Parts List.jpg

Originally Posted by DSEL74

I made up some labeled parts diagrams, please feel free to point out if I have mislabelled anything. I think I stole the photos from Vann's resto.

Dawn 611.Parts List.jpgSpindle Parts List.jpg

Hi.Just noticed that you have the number 23 on the photo of the 611 list but it isn`t named on the actual list.
Regards Ross

Mspil, I'm not sure what you mean later type fly-wheel? It is my understanding the fly-wheel was constant throughout.[/QUOTE]

I have learned that the early drills had a flywheel with a rim that was circular in section. Apparently, many users formed the habit of gripping this wheel with their fingers through the spokes. This was found to be disconcerting, even painful when the wheel turned. Later drills had a finger groove formed in the inner edge of the wheel circumference, intended to persuade users to grip the rim without putting fingers through the spokes. Attached is a photo of my drill showing this feature. I do not have a photo of the earlier type. Some other reader may be able to oblige.006.jpg

Originally Posted by mspil

Mspil, I'm not sure what you mean later type fly-wheel? It is my understanding the fly-wheel was constant throughout.

I have learned that the early drills had a flywheel with a rim that was circular in section. Apparently, many users formed the habit of gripping this wheel with their fingers through the spokes. This was found to be disconcerting, even painful when the wheel turned. Later drills had a finger groove formed in the inner edge of the wheel circumference, intended to persuade users to grip the rim without putting fingers through the spokes. Attached is a photo of my drill showing this feature. I do not have a photo of the earlier type. Some other reader may be able to oblige.006.jpg

Ok yes I had heard that there was a round sectioned fly-wheel. Never seen one or a picture of one though. It slipped my mind…seniors moment. Where did you hear about the the round wheel and why it changed??? It is a very interesting point.


I will have to go back and put the description in for no# 23. I must have typed over it with 24

Hi DSEL,

Nice find. It looks like you've scanned it using text recognition software. I've taken the liberty of editting out some of the "mis-reads", and checked it against McPherson's Dawn advert to be sure the sizes are right.

THE BUYING SERVICE
Drill are Useful Articles on Any Farm
(CONDUCTED DY UNCLE WISEMAN.)

FREQUENTLY a farmer finds himself faced with the necessity for doing a Job for, which a more expensive tool is needed, something in the nature of a machine for precision work. Cost of purchase is, perhaps, one of the greatest stumbling blocks to the acquisition of such a machine. Uncle Wiseman is now able to offer his country friends machine tools at reasonable prices.

Another machine in common use among blacksmiths is the Dawn combined bench or post drill. This sturdy little machine is designed to be fitted to either bench or post and is admirably suited for the home workshop, both in efficiency and price. The head has a radial and vertical adjustment and gives a maximum clearance of 10-in. between base and end of spindle. It is hand fed, drills to the centre of 10-in. (9") circle, drills holes to 1-in. (¾“) diameter and has a run of feed of 2-in. Diameter of the spindle is ¾-in., diameter of the pillar is 1-in., height of pillar 20-in., base 7 x 5-in. and the weight of the machine is 29-lb, Price is 39/-. Ask for No. 600.

The Dawn drilling machine, No. 611, is of the post type, with gear-driven fly-wheel, It is larger than No. 600, ruggedly constructed, and carefully fitted. The steel spindles run in accurately reamed bearings, all gears being fully meshed. The machine is an automatic feeder. The strong body casting is heavily ribbed and the pillar supporting the sliding table is a solid bright steel bar instead of the usual light tubing.

The Dawn coupling connecting the main spindle to the feed screw engages the full circumference instead of the small pin on one side only, and embraces a ball-bearing thrust race. Each machine is supplied with a heavy back board.
Further particulars are: Drills to 12-in. circle, drills holes to 1¼-in. diameter, run of feed 3-in., diameter of spindle ⅞-in., diameter of pillar 1⅛-in., weight 65-lb. Price is 67/6.

The Dawn drilling machine, No. 616, as a post type, with gear-driven fly wheel and two speeds. It is fitted with fast and loose pulley for belt drive if desired. Drills to centre of 16-in. circle, drills holes to 1½-in. diameter, run of feed 3½ -in., run of table 15-in., diameter of spindle 1⅛ in., diameter of pillar 1½ - in. Weight 126-lb. Price for this model is £6/13/6.
Thursday, 3 November 1938

Interesting (well, to me anyway) that McPherson's claim the No.600 drills to the centre of a 9" circle, while Uncle Wiseman claims to the centre of a 10" circle. Similarly McPherson's claim the No.600 has a ¾“ capacity, while Uncle Wiseman claims 1".

Originally Posted by DSEL74

Note the terminology used, GEARS, Fly-Wheel, Spindles, Pillar, Sliding Table, Coupling, Feed Screw, Ball Bearing Thrust Race, Back Board..

And Uncle Wiseman refers to "gears" while McPherson's refer to "cogs".

Originally Posted by DSEL74

I always assumed that they were fixed directly to a post. It seems from reading this and some other information they came bolted to a board and the board was fixed to a suitable post or wall.

I wondered why almost every post drill you see has a board against the wall or post.

Thanks for finding another interesting article.

Cheers, Vann.

[QUOTE=DSEL74;1670778]The 611 was made between 1920-1950, they started out with the plates and later changed to bearings. Hard to date because many people changed them over as an easy swap.

I am a little intrigued by the thrust plates. Mine are noticeably convex/concave. Is this normal, or did they start out flat and become distorted with use? Secondly, I have no trace of a fibre washer between the plates, just a lot of grease. Is this a problem in use? Thirdly, does the change to a ball race system necessitate shortening either the feed screw or the spindle, or both?
All this presupposes that I am able to find a place for it in my garage/workshop. The alternative is to bolt it near my BBQ area, and use it for cracking walnuts.

[QUOTE=mspil;1671758]

Originally Posted by DSEL74

The 611 was made between 1920-1950, they started out with the plates and later changed to bearings. Hard to date because many people changed them over as an easy swap.

I am a little intrigued by the thrust plates. Mine are noticeably convex/concave. Is this normal, or did they start out flat and become distorted with use? Secondly, I have no trace of a fibre washer between the plates, just a lot of grease. Is this a problem in use? Thirdly, does the change to a ball race system necessitate shortening either the feed screw or the spindle, or both?
All this presupposes that I am able to find a place for it in my garage/workshop. The alternative is to bolt it near my BBQ area, and use it for cracking walnuts.

I would suggest that you had the ballbearing version and have been castrated. (Lost your balls). I think the plates with the fibre washer were fully flat.

I did read that there was a change in the lengths (spindle/feedscrew) but haven't verified this. The difference in length would be minimal as the bearings would be only a few mm thicker than the fibre washer.

Originally Posted by mspil

The alternative is to bolt it near my BBQ area, and use it for cracking walnuts.

That would be a shame . But I feel your pain. I think if I shift the petrol weed-eater to another wall, I just might be able to mount mine on the side of a cabinet...

Originally Posted by DSEL74

I think the plates with the fibre washer were fully flat.

The steel plates on my "fibre washer" post drill are slightly dished. I can't imagine that forces strong enough to dish flat washers wouldn't destroy the fibre washer - so I've concluded that they were made that way - either on purpose, or due to a worn punch when they were made.

Thrust bearinga.JPGThrust bearingd.JPG

Originally Posted by DSEL74

I would suggest that you had the ballbearing version and have been castrated. (Lost your balls). I think the plates with the fibre washer were fully flat.

I too wondered whether mspil's originally had a fibre washer, or ball bearings. I had assumed the fibre washer, but DSEL's then posted that the ball bearings ran loose between two similar plates. Surely if ball bearing had disintergrated, there would be coarse steel particles in the grease? Another possibility is that a previous owner has dismantled it and left something out upon re-assembly.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

I did read that there was a change in the lengths (spindle/feedscrew) but haven't verified this. The difference in length would be minimal as the bearings would be only a few mm thicker than the fibre washer.

I'll have to measure the feed screw and spindle on mine for reference (not sure if I can get that done before I leave for work this arvo).

Just out of interest - this is the ball bearing arrangement on borringgeoff's Buffalo Forge 611 post drill..

BF611 002.JPG

Cheers, Vann.

Originally Posted by Vann

I too wondered whether mspil's originally had a fibre washer, or ball bearings. I had assumed the fibre washer, but DSEL's then posted that the ball bearings ran loose between two similar plates. Surely if ball bearing had disintergrated, there would be coarse steel particles in the grease? Another possibility is that a previous owner has dismantled it and left something out upon re-assembly.
.

I doubt they disintegrated, but as soon as I moved the coupler back by balls fell out and went everywhere. So the previous owner could have been caught unaware and lost his balls before he knew what had happened. He may never have gotten around to replacing either the ball bearings or the fibre washer, which ever was there originally.

Thrust bearingd.JPG
Okay, the dimensions in the area of the coupling, on my "fibre washer" model are as follows (measured in metric using a very-near):

Spindle top end: the groove for the split washer is 3.1mm (<1/8") wide, and is 4.65mm (3/16") from the top the end of the spindle.

Feed Screw: the "collar" is 14.10mm wide, with the bottom end of the feed screw poking through 3.90mm. The end is not flat, but has two chamfers - the lower of which almost comes to a shallow point. Total length of the feed screw (ignoring where the parting tool left a small boss) is 141.5mm.

Coupler: is bored from the top, 28.5mm diameter, to a depth of ~37mm. The spindle hole through the bottom is 22.85mm diameter.

Fibre Washer: 3.18mm (1/8" thick) x 26.7mm diameter, and showing no sign of wear.

HTH.

Cheers, Vann.