Design Advice to Drive Machinery

**DaveTTC** · 8th August 2013, 07:43 PM

Rob & Camo

Originally Posted by auscab

Hi Dave ,

I saw somewhere?? I think in a fine woodworking publication a workshop that was a drawing that had a line shaft that drove all the machines . I think it ran under the floor.

If a 3 phase generator and a single phase one as well were run for 5 hours per $5000 table what would the fuel bill be ? $50

what do you think ?
Rob

HI Rob,

If you can find a link or pics or more info on that I would be very interested

I imagine $50 should cover it ... now the other big idea

I'm talking line shaft that can run everything or almost everything in my work shaft. How about 2 drive methods. 3 Phase motor as one and .......

Get a car motor with cruise control and good torque. Now for the sparkies out there and other leckies forgive my use of wrong terms and feel free to correct me. Wire up all the machinery with a switch using relays or whatever is needed so that the motor automatically starts when you go to turn on the machine. Having a dozen or more on switches and kill switches may be a little tricky but doable. As the load on the machine kicks in cruise control should maintain speed.

For what its worth you could use a gear box ... then you have variable speed for the few tools that might like it. Run straight off the tail shaft of use the diff.

Take the idea a little further and you get say 3 40' containers without walls. You set your workshop up in these, you can have all your drive under or over etc .... if you ever move - 3 semi's and you can take your workshop with you

Originally Posted by camoz

Thanks Dave,

That gives me a better idea of what you are trying to achieve

You can put me down as a visitor

.

Based on what you have said, I would definitely be investigating your power further, before going too far (especially if you are looking at it as a way to make an income, its best to know what you are in for upfront). I am definitely no electrician, so perhaps Crocy might be able to give some better information regarding this. What I am getting at is if you want to run say a table saw or spindle moulder or perhaps 2 machines at once, I would imagine your motor will have to be at least say 4 or 5 HP and probably more.

Given that Amps = (HP X 746 Watts)/Volts, a 5HP motor is about 8.5 amps at 440V and 15.5amps at 240V, which doesn't factor in the fact that motors are obviously not 100% efficient (so it draws more than it outputs), and neither are VFD's, and you need a lot more current for that small time as the motor starts (which as I understand it is another advantage of soft start?), which is why a 3HP single phase motor generally comes with a 15amp plug (even though the math says 9.3amps).

I don't know what the old 2 phase 440V stove circuits can output (but it is certainly better than just having a 10 or 15 amp 240V circuit, so I would imagine that is good news), but is it enough, and given the fact that it is an old circuit will the wiring need to be upgraded? When I ran 3 phase to the workshop, I decided I wanted to be able to go as high as 32 amps, although at this stage the breaker and plugs are only 20amp, to do this I had to upgrade the wires all the way back to the street (not something I had anticipated initially).

Well I just read what I have written and boy does it sound like I am bringing things down

, not my intention at all, but these are things to check first, then into the exciting stuff

.

Cheers,

Camo

Camo ........ Yeeee ep,

I'm no sparkie. Not sure what is here but I have a roll of 6mm flex which can run a line from house to shed. I thought amps went down with 3 phase? 10 amps on single only needing 5 amps on 3

you'd be more than welcome to visit

**camoz** · 8th August 2013, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by DaveTTC

I thought amps went down with 3 phase? 10 amps on single only needing 5 amps on 3

Again I am certainly no expert, but amps goes down with voltage increase, not too sure if it's possible to run a VFD from 2 phase 440V. So as I understand it, if you end up needing to use a VFD to run a 3 phase 440V motor from a 240V source, then a motor requiring 5 amps from a 3 phase power supply is going to require 10 amps from the 240V single phase supply, that's just my understanding.

Cheers,

Camo

**DaveTTC** · 8th August 2013, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by camoz

Again I am certainly no expert, but amps goes down with voltage increase, not too sure if it's possible to run a VFD from 2 phase 440V. So as I understand it, if you end up needing to use a VFD to run a 3 phase 440V motor from a 240V source, then a motor requiring 5 amps from a 3 phase power supply is going to require 10 amps from the 240V single phase supply, that's just my understanding.

Cheers,

Camo

yep ok that makes sense, i got you now

**BobL** · 8th August 2013, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by DaveTTC

Get a car motor with cruise control and good torque. Now for the sparkies out there and other leckies forgive my use of wrong terms and feel free to correct me. Wire up all the machinery with a switch using relays or whatever is needed so that the motor automatically starts when you go to turn on the machine. Having a dozen or more on switches and kill switches may be a little tricky but doable. As the load on the machine kicks in cruise control should maintain speed.

Assuming a gearbox is used, irrespective of the size of a engine it will still need to turn the required revs.
A car motor running at 5L/100km running at say the equivalent of 80 kph will need 4L of petrol ($6) an hour.
This would be similar to what a smaller 24HP Kohler style motor would use
Running a 3HP (2.2kW motor at 25c/kWhr costs 55c an hour - so ~10 times more expensive not including servicing that would be needed every couple of hundred hours.

I

**1thumb** · 8th August 2013, 10:40 PM

why not have the motor run at one speed and regulate the machine speed with the pulleys driving them

**DaveTTC** · 8th August 2013, 10:50 PM

loving the feed back even if some of my ideas are getting shot down in flames

Onethumb - yes I will probably go that way

**Colin62** · 9th August 2013, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by BobL

A car motor running at 5L/100km running at say the equivalent of 80 kph will need 4L of petrol ($6) an hour.

It'll use a lot less fuel than that if it's only driving a load that is a couple of KW - the throttle will barely be open at that level of load.

**clear out** · 9th August 2013, 08:50 AM

Re line shaft under floor.
In the 70s I worked at UNSW and one subject that was studied was ethnotecnology

Which consisted of driving out into the country and drinking with the locals and finding out about the old saw mills etc in the area.

At Armidale the was a mill which had line shafting under the floor driven by a large steam engine. The boiler which was from Morts dock in Sydney was fired on sawdust.
They also had multiple small steam engines around the factory driving individual machines.
The place had just been taken over by one of the larger players for their log quotas so its gone for sure.
We did extract the steam winding engine from Kurri and the army shipped it to the Goulburn steam museum.
As the first petrol crisis was happening a lot of the old places literally disappeared overnight.
H

**DaveTTC** · 9th August 2013, 09:41 AM

Colin62 - thanks for input

Clear out - that would be interesting to follow up, to see what is still at these places or even some old footage. How long ago was it that you visited these places?

**Gra** · 9th August 2013, 11:58 AM

Ok, now for the weird option. You are looking at making it a tourist attraction, you are looking at using old shaft drive machinery. Well why not go the whole hog. small stationary engine out the side of the shed to drive the shaft. You could use it as as sales pitch, "The Steam Powered Workshop"

The old workshops had the shaft running overhead, like the shearers, with either the machine permanently running (belt continuously engaged) or the belt loose enough that at could be knocked off when not in use (not sure how this works in transmitting power though)

My idea for the belts would be side by side pulleys, one with a solid connection to the "Drive shaft" and the other with a bearing, so when the machine is not in use the belt is slid across to the one with the bearing, when you want drive slide it back to the one with drive. Not sure if it would work, just a wild thought

**clear out** · 9th August 2013, 12:34 PM

Dave,
It was in the early 1970s so most is now kaput.
I posted in this thread under 'Lineshaft' a few pics of the gear in my shed.
In the lower pic is a fast and loose pulley arrangement.
There is a lever wot moves the belt sideways from the idling puller to the drive pulley.
From memory there was a lathe driven off this set up that is why there different sizes for the final drive down to the lathe.
As I wrote I intend to get the mortiser going and if it hasn't been scrapped a 1900s Wadkin pattern mill.
To this end I have a few spare pulleys and quite a few older engineering books on how to set up and run this gear.
The guy I bought the mortiser from in Bathurst had a few lengths of shearing gear in his yard.
Where about's are you? You're welcome to drop in if you want to check my gear out.
H.

**DaveTTC** · 9th August 2013, 02:37 PM

Gra - I like that idea too ... I'd have to get up to speed on how to operate it.

**DaveTTC** · 9th August 2013, 02:38 PM

Clear out - Im in Jerilderie, southern NSW

are you in Syndey?

**DaveTTC** · 9th August 2013, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by clear out

Dave,

I posted in this thread under 'Lineshaft' a few pics of the gear in my shed.

H.

I cant find it ... could you possibly post a link

Thx

**1thumb** · 9th August 2013, 07:19 PM

i think you need a holiday
Timbertown - Welcome to Timbertown

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