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  1. #1
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    Default Green River Post Drill

    My 12 year old daughter is going to a Scout Jamboree in December. As part of the fundraising, the scout troop has been digging and bagging sheep poo from under a couple of shearing sheds. At the back of one woolshed I spotted this...

    GR 741a2.jpg GR 741b3.jpg

    It's a Green River No.741 manufactured by Wiley & Russell Manufacturing Co of Greenfield in the USofA

    GR 741f2.jpg GR 741d2.jpg GR 741h2.jpg

    Note "Wiley & Russell" cast into the RH cog.

    It has 'fast' and 'loose' pulleys for line-shaft drive, as well as ye olde crank handle. It's missing the auto-feed ratchet arm and pawl; the table locking lever; and (I think) a horizontal flywheel off the top of the spindle.

    Eventually I plucked up the courage to offer the farmer a small sum of money for it (or was it plucking up the courage to tell my wife I was looking at acquiring more junk for the shed ). He accepted, and I'm now the proud owner of another refurbish project.

    741hLL.jpg

    Here it is on my driveway at home - before going into storage (I'd better finish my Dawn post drill first).

    My initial impression is that it's better made the my Dawn No.611 - at least the gears seem quieter, 'though maybe that's because of all the wool fibres still stuck to everything .

    Cheers, Vann.
    Gatherer of rusty planes tools...
    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club .

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  3. #2
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    Default

    Nice score!

    I was looking at that design on Vintagemachinery earlier in the week while doing some research. Today I see you have this already up there! You also have the Canadian Blower but no Dawn

    The Canadian Blower had a pressed metal table not a cast one which is a bit on the cheap and nasty side.


    Here is an ad for your new acquisition.

    $(KGrHqZHJE0FIKRZHZCFBSCo!d1V,w~~60_3.JPG
    …..Live a Quiet Life & Work with your Hands

  4. #3
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    Default

    I had a green river knife. Wonder if that was the same mob?
    Regards
    John

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by orraloon View Post
    I had a green river knife. Wonder if that was the same mob?
    Regards
    John

    Green River was the name of the range not the manufacturer. The manufacturer was Wiley & Russell Manufacturing Co of Greenfield, USA. They made a wide range of items including Taps&Dies, Drills, travellers, and machinery. Mostly they seem to be focussed on threading and the associated tools needed. They produced bolt cutter machines so they were from small to large scale.


    There are other companies called Green River including a knife maker.

    "Wiley & Russell Mfg Co., Greenfield, Mass."

    Wiley & Russell was established by Solon Wiley and Charles P. Russell in 1872 to manufacture taps and dies. Russell was the nephew of the founder of the J. Russell Cutlery Company. When the cutlery firm moved to Turners Falls, Wiley & Russell were able to acquire their old factory on the Green River. As the firm prospered, it expanded its product line to include tools and machinery for farriers, blacksmiths and wheelwrights. They produced a line of drilling machines under the "Green River" trademark. (John Russell Cutlery also used the "Green River" name for its knives, especially Bowie knives, which enjoyed a high reputation in the "old west." Parenthetically, John Russell is known as one of the most important innovators of the American System of manufacturing, which emphasized production methods leading to easy parts interchangeability. The John Russell Cutlery Company survived into the mid 1930's.) As for Wiley & Russell, it was was acquired through a hostile takeover by the Wells Brothers Company in 1912 to create the Greenfield Tap and Die Corporation, for a time the world's largest manufacture of taps and dies. The use of the Wiley and Russell name was reportedly discontinued after 1916




    Here are some patents:
    https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=p...s/US537719.pdf

    Patent US534180 - Setts - Google Patents




    This is a number 22





    This one is in Victoria and going to be donated to Sovereign Hill and looks more like yours with the enclosed top casting.











    The Green River is a small river that passes along the western edge of Greenfield, MA. and eventually joins the Connecticut River to the eastward. In the first half of the 19th century, this river was kind of an "industrial seat" with several cutlery and machine tool companies located here. Wiley & Russell (A predecessor to Greenfield Tool & Die) were one of these who also made some small machine tools including bolt threaders and possibly your post drill.

    See http://www.crocker.com/greenfield/history.html for a "pocket history" of the Greenfield, MA area.

    The interrelationship between the cutlery and machine tool industries of that area is interesting and bears your further reading. See "The Conservative Rebel: A Social History of Greenfield, Massachusetts" by Paul Jenkins which you may find at your local library or at www.abebooks.com.

    The products of Greenfield, MA industry went all around the world, as evidenced by your post drill.

    An expression commonly heard in the American west after a bar-room knife fight was "Stuck up to 'Green River'" which refers to the point on bowie knives (another popular Greenfield product) where they were imprinted with the name of the "Green River Cutlery Co.," and as the knives were imprinted pretty close to the hilt, this was an admission of a fatal blow.

    You might check some early (Ca. 1900 or so) Sears Catalog Reprints. I seem to remember some "Green River" products available there.

    Hope this helps. An interesting area, time and machine made before America became the world's leading exporter of "jobs."



    Vann, check the shank size on it some came with a 5/8th (or possibly 41/64") rather than the standard ½"

    …..Live a Quiet Life & Work with your Hands

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSEL74 View Post
    Nice score!
    Thanks, I'm feeling rather pleased...

    Quote Originally Posted by DSEL74
    I was looking at that design on Vintagemachinery earlier in the week while doing some research. Today I see you have this already up there! You also have the Canadian Blower but no Dawn
    No, the site won't host Australian machines

    "Unfortunately the VM site does not extend its research to manufacturers located in Australia. We originally focused on gathering and cataloging info only on US and Canadian based manufacturers, and not too long go extended that to U.K. manufacturers. At this time there are no plans to expand the focus again, but that could always change in the future. The problem is that each expansion of the data base represents a significant commitment of volunteer time and effort."

    So I'm afraid you Aussies are lumped in with the Chinese, Taiwanese and Korean manufacturers as "foreign" .


    Quote Originally Posted by DSEL74
    Here is an ad for your new acquisition.

    $(KGrHqZHJE0FIKRZHZCFBSCo!d1V,w~~60_3.JPG
    Ah, fantastic. I hadn't found any info on the No.741, so that's great. Thanks.

    Cheers, Vann.
    Gatherer of rusty planes tools...
    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club .

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSEL74 View Post
    Vann, check the shank size on it some came with a 5/8th (or possibly 41/64") rather than the standard ½"
    Hi DSEL. I checked it the other day, it was a sloppy fit on a ½" shank blacksmith's drill bit. I checked it again today with the largest bit in my set of straight shanked twist bits - 13mm. It was still slightly loose, but I wouldn't get a 13.5mm bit in there, let alone a 5/8" bit. So I guess it's nominally a ½" model.

    I also tried the ½" blacksmith's bit in my Dawn 611 (a bit sloppy) and my Canadian Blower and Forge No.61 (a neat fit).

    The great thing about these being ½" models is that we can still buy ½" reduced shank drill bits (without the flat), and ½" shank arbors for "Jacobs" chucks. With 5/8" or 41/64" I'd have no choice but to have an adaptor made, as my chances of buying either of those size bits (even on the second-hand market) must be next to zilch.

    Cheers, Vann.
    Gatherer of rusty planes tools...
    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club .

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vann View Post
    Hi DSEL. I checked it the other day, it was a sloppy fit on a ½" shank blacksmith's drill bit. I checked it again today with the largest bit in my set of straight shanked twist bits - 13mm. It was still slightly loose, but I wouldn't get a 13.5mm bit in there, let alone a 5/8" bit. So I guess it's nominally a ½" model.

    I also tried the ½" blacksmith's bit in my Dawn 611 (a bit sloppy) and my Canadian Blower and Forge No.61 (a neat fit).

    The great thing about these being ½" models is that we can still buy ½" reduced shank drill bits (without the flat), and ½" shank arbors for "Jacobs" chucks. With 5/8" or 41/64" I'd have no choice but to have an adaptor made, as my chances of buying either of those size bits (even on the second-hand market) must be next to zilch.

    Cheers, Vann.
    I'd love to get a complete set of original flat sided drills even if they were blunt etc to go with the post drills. I saw a drawing from a old catalog the other day which had this awesome drill rack and oil can hold built into the post drill, fantastic.
    …..Live a Quiet Life & Work with your Hands

  9. #8
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    Default

    Copied from Dawn Dating thread
    Quote Originally Posted by hiroller View Post
    There is also a very interesting looking Green River post drill but it belongs in another thread!
    post drill press | Trade Me
    It's a No.AA and appears to be similar to mine - minus the flat-belt drive pulleys.

    W&R AA 3a.jpg
    W&R AA 6.jpg W&R AA 2.jpg W&R AA 4.jpg W&R AA 1.jpg W&R AA 5.jpg

    Cheers, Vann.
    Gatherer of rusty planes tools...
    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club .

  10. #9
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    Default Tis over a year...

    Tis over a year now, but I've been appraoched by a bloke "Russ" from Missouri, USA, who also has a No.741, but lacking a number of parts

    I've decided to post the info I document, on here, as a reference for any other No.741 owner or future researcher.
    Firstly, Russ is missing the loose and fast pulleys, so for the first post of this thread I’ll concentrate on them.

    I’ve seen this set-up of flat belt pulleys referred to by other names, but I like this terminology. The “loose” pulley is free to spin when the drill is not in use. The ‘fast’ pulley is not a reference to its speed, but refers to it being fastened to the drive (usually to the flywheel shaft).

    Unlike your common-or-garden post drill, this model has a top mounted, horizontal flywheel, so the loose and fast pulleys are a completely separate assembly. There’s a supporting bracket with stub shaft, a loose pulley, and a combined fast pulley and gear wheel.

    W1HM.jpg

    Four unique screws attach the bracket to the main casting of the drill. Each screw is 29/32" long. Max diameter of the tapered head is 15/32" and the taper is ~5/16" long. Threaded portion is dia. 5/16", 20tpi, and 1/2" long over threads. Slotted head.

    W2HM.jpg

    There's also a grub screw (not illustrated) that secures the end of the pulley shaft in its locating socket on the main casting. This grub screw is 13/32" long, 1/4" diameter, and threaded 24tpi.

    View showing pulleys half off the shaft:

    W4HM.jpg

    View showing pulley bracket with pulleys removed:

    W6HM.jpg

    The shaft is 1 1/8" dia. and 8 1/2" overall (including the portion embedded in the bracket).

    More to come.

    Cheers, Vann.
    Last edited by Vann; 27th October 2014 at 03:02 PM. Reason: Shaft dimensions added.
    Gatherer of rusty planes tools...
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  11. #10
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    Default I'm sorry, I'll read that again...

    The pictures seem to have gone astray on the previous post, so I'll try again (this also bumps the thread so that when I get back to this project it won't have fallen into the "too old" basket).

    Loose pulley
    . The pulley wheel is 8 1/16" dia and 2 3/16" wide. Note the brass oiling tube alongside the spoke at 11o'clock.

    W8bHL.jpg W8aHL.jpg ...and the screw covering the end of the tube.

    Fast pulley and gear. The pulley wheel is the same width and diameter as the loose pulley. The gear wheel has 34 teeth and is 5 29/32" dia. It’s hub is extended and machined to take the loose pulley – that is to say the loose pulley spins on the fast pulley hub extension, not on the shaft.

    W7aHM.jpg W7bHM.jpg W7cHM.jpg

    Cheers, Vann.
    Gatherer of rusty planes tools...
    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club .

  12. #11
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    Is that brass oil tube original?? I have often seen holes in pulley outer rims and wondered what they were for. They usually sit above the locking bolt to the shaft but I couldn't see a point in that as they were too small to fit a screwdriver or spanner through.

    Will have to look more closely with a new perspective, as to possible oil tubes.
    …..Live a Quiet Life & Work with your Hands

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSEL74 View Post
    Is that brass oil tube original??
    I've assumed it is. I might have to look more closely next time I'm tinkering with it. I would have thought that centrifugal force would have sent any oil to the outer rim (maybe that's why it's got a screw in it ). On the other hand, having that tube would be like having a small oil reservoir.

    Cheers, Vann.
    Gatherer of rusty planes tools...
    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club .

  14. #13
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    Yes the screw probably seals it. In some ways it doesn't make sense to me. Unless the spoke that the tube is on is lighter than the others then the wheel isn't balanced, so won' run true. It will also be heavier so will sit to the bottom so the oil won't drip up, when running centrifugal force will push the oil towards the outer rim.

    So does the brass tube have a wick to draw the oil out? Is there some capillary action that is stronger than the centrifugal forces?

    Is it an oiler at all? How far can the screw go in? Maybe it is a grease cap and as you screw down more grease is pushed out?


    Sorry just thoughts & questions but no answers.
    …..Live a Quiet Life & Work with your Hands

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSEL74 View Post
    Yes the screw probably seals it. In some ways it doesn't make sense to me. Unless the spoke that the tube is on is lighter than the others then the wheel isn't balanced, so won' run true. It will also be heavier so will sit to the bottom so the oil won't drip up, when running centrifugal force will push the oil towards the outer rim.

    So does the brass tube have a wick to draw the oil out? Is there some capillary action that is stronger than the centrifugal forces?

    Is it an oiler at all? How far can the screw go in? Maybe it is a grease cap and as you screw down more grease is pushed out?
    I had a quick look (before I go away for the weekend). The tube is completely clear - though that's not to say I didn't clean it out when I had it apart last year. The tube is too bent to allow the screw to go in far (forgot to try how far it will go - but I suspect that flush is about the limit).

    Yes I agree, it doesn't seem to make much sense - except that even something as hit-and-miss as this, is better than no oil at all.

    Interesting discussion.

    Cheers, Vann.
    Gatherer of rusty planes tools...
    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club .

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