Kenyon Saws

**Bushmiller** · 6th July 2018, 07:33 PM

I often think on why a name is revered and why it may be deserved or not. It appears that sometimes the myth precedes the object and gathers fame like a rolling snowball. I tend to develop motoring analogies to illustrate my point. I have mentioned in the past the position some Bugattis have in the world of automobiles so I won’t do that again.

Instead I will point to the status of the Vincent in motorcycles and one particular episode back in 1948 when Rollie Free, having shredded his leathers in his first attempt at a speed record, donned a skull cap and swimmers plus he borrowed a pair of plimsolls (really not sure why he bothered with the shoes. Was it to protect his toes if he came off or to change gears before he adopted the prone position on the bike?). He then proceeded to break the flying one mile record at a tad over 150mph on his Vincent Black Lightning, although there is some debate as to whether it was a Lightning or a Shadow.

It was the stuff from which legends are made. Surprisingly, having regard to his daredevil style of riding, Rollie Free lived on to the age of eighty four.

Rollie_Free,_record_run.jpg

Having started the thread on a total digression, which is so uncharacteristic of me, it is the saw manufacturing company of John Kenyon & Co that I wish to highlight and in particular the legendary status afforded by the six saws included in the unique and also legendary Seaton Tool Chest.

In fact I believe it is true to say that the Kenyon saws would have faded into oblivion if it were not for the tool chest of Benjamin Seaton as there appears to be precious few examples around. At this point I need to mention “The Tool Chest of Benjamin Seaton.” I recently acquired a copy and it is this publication that has enabled me to provide information on the saws in particular. I can thoroughly recommend the book, which is available through Taths (Tools and Trades History Society.) You can visit their website www.taths.org.uk .

I would also point out that besides the saws, there are over two hundred tools included in the chest. Clearly around twenty tools have gone missing as identified by the inventory, but otherwise it is almost as it was back in 1797. The other remarkable factor is that these tools and the saws are virtually unused and remain much as they were two hundred and twenty years ago.
Conjecture is that the tools, which had been bought for Benjamin Seaton by Joseph Seaton, his father, may not have been actually used to build the chest. They have been used, possibly by others, but not extensively.
The book incidentally is an excellent buy and if you get the second edition it includes detailed drawings of the tools complete with dimensions. The chisels, the planes and the saws are all fully dimensioned, although some of the larger items may have to be scaled up.

So back to John Kenyon and Co. which dates from 1757 as a maker of saws in Sheffield under the two brothers John and James Kenyon, although the origins of name go further back to 1738 when the father was a master cutler in Sheffield.

It seems that James Kenyon faded from the scene and it is the brother, John, with whom we are most familiar. However, familiarity is something of a misnomer in two regards. Firstly, there were quite a few associations with other entities or partnerships through the years and the business moved from Sheffield to Norwich and then to Ipswich until the business was finally wound up when the receivers were appointed in 1930. Only a few years earlier the company employed about two hundred people.

The second phenomena is that so few examples of Kenyon saws exist today. This dearth of saws makes the six saws in the Seaton chest even more remarkable.
The company of John Kenyon was not just saw a manufacturer, but a steel merchant and also made a wide range of products (in the same vein as the American maufacturers, but on nowhere near the same scale) such as files, edge tools, machine knives as well as saws and other products. This information comes from a Sheffield directory of 1890 and features in Simon Barley’s book, “British Saws and Sawmakers from 1660.” Simon’s book is another publication I can recommend if you have an interest in saws.

There were six saws in the Seaton tool chest. Two hand saws and four back saws with two of the back saws being closed handles and two open handles.

Kenyon saws by Seaton (3).jpg

(Reproduced courtesy of the publishers, The Tools and Trades History Society)

I contacted the secretary, Tony Waldis, to ask permission to reproduce the pic from the book and that was graciously given. Tony also mentioned that he had not only seen the saws in the flesh, but he had even handled them. They are as you may be aware kept in a glass case in a museum. It gets better as he had taken some pix himself and has graciously allowed me to reproduce them for this thread:

Kenyon handsaw handle Tonys pic 2 (2).jpg Kenyon saw from Seaton Chest. Tony's pic 1 (2).jpg Saws from Seaton Chest. Tonys pic 3 (2).jpg

(Pix Reproduced by courtesy of Tony Waldis)

I was particularly struck by the fineness of the handles, which are of course in the London pattern, which is squared off along the lower edge of the handle. The saws are described in an inventory in terms that are not quite so familiar to us today. The inventory terms are in italics:

Rip Saw 26” (6ppi) Hand saw
Hand Saw 26”. (8ppi) Panel
Tenon Saw 19 1/16” (11ppi) Tonond
Tenon Saw 14 1/16” (14ppi) Sash
Tenon Saw 11 ¾” (15/16ppi) Carcass
Dovetail saw 9 7/32” (20ppi) Dovetail

The Seaton family business was that of cabinet makers and the saws all seem to have relatively fine teeth with the possible exception of the hand saw. The book comments that possibly the concentration on back saws was because the Seaton business was that of cabinet makers rather than carpenters. There was also a keyhole saw and a turning saw included.

It is worth mentioning with the names that although the book states we may be unfamiliar with the saw names, we here in Australia seem to have perpetuated some of those names (sash, carcass etc) while generally all these saws are today lumped under the single banner of a back saw. The panel saw is used for the full size hand saw, but it is the large back saw with the name Tonond, which is the really odd ball. I had never heard that term before.

The saws and the Seaton Chest was gifted by the Seaton descendants in 1910 and is housed in the Guildhall Museum in Rochester.

https://100objectskent.co.uk/object/seaton-tool-chest/

Regards
Paul

**Bushmiller** · 6th July 2018, 07:44 PM

How does the phrase go? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Such is the status of the Kenyon saws that a number of companies have produced saws in the style of the Kenyon saws. These companies have produced their models commercially. In addition many other individuals have produced their own versions: Yet more testimony to the regard in which these saws are held.

This large tenon saw was made by Blackburn tools:

kenyon-seaton large tenon.jpg kenyon-seaton-19-apple-02 blackburn tools handle.jpg

Wenzloff and Sons produced a range of Kenyon styled saws for a while, but they don’t appear to feature on their website any more

wenzloff_kenyon_saws.jpg Kenyon Seaton by Wenzloff - Copy.jpg Kenyon Panel 26 inch.jpg

The only manufacturer I know that currently produces Kenyon style saws is the British firm of Skelton, which is a small concern, as are most bespoke sawmakers. Their saws include a panel saw and a rip saw. Very stylish and costing a pretty penny at around A$ 960.

Skelton handsaw.jpg Skelton handsaw handle.png

Not in everybody’s budget!

Regards
Paul

**Simplicity** · 6th July 2018, 08:14 PM

Paul,
Yet another fantastic thread, thank you for going to such efforts.
It for me certainly doesn’t go unnoticed.

Cheers Matt

**Luke Maddux** · 6th July 2018, 11:46 PM

Thanks, Paul.

I'd only heard about these saws via the Wenzloff reproduction set, so it's good to see some more light shone on the subject.

When I see saws with that handle shape, where the bottom of the handle appears inorganically flat, I immediately think that that is an indicator of 18th century vintage, with saws of the 19th century, possibly due to the style developing in the new world, having a more curved bottom horn like we see today. Would you say there is some truth to that?

And is there a practical purpose to the flat-bottomed handle?

Cheers,
Luke

**rob streeper** · 7th July 2018, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

When I see saws with that handle shape, where the bottom of the handle appears inorganically flat, I immediately think that that is an indicator of 18th century vintage, with saws of the 19th century, possibly due to the style developing in the new world, having a more curved bottom horn like we see today. Would you say there is some truth to that?

And is there a practical purpose to the flat-bottomed handle?

Barley mentions in one of his books on saws that the flat bottom handle is 'London' style and that it was used on second quality saws. I'll see if I can find the direct quote and post it here.

**Bushmiller** · 7th July 2018, 11:17 AM

Interesting that both Luke and Rob have picked up on the London pattern handle. I recall that when I first saw it I did not like it at all. In many ways it reminded me of the Kamm tail principle in automobile streamlining. Dr Kamm was a German who said that the most streamlined shape for a car (or anything I suppose) was a cigar shape. However, such a shape, except for record breaking vehicles, was impractical for road use as it would be about thirty feet long at least, so the next best thing was to chop the rear portion off vertically: Hence the Kamm tail or principle.

Well the horizontal portion of the handle that constitutes the lower part of a saw handle to my mind reflects that: Not for aerodynamic reasons, but for practicality. The curvature of the lower handle, in theory, gets in the way of the timber as in this saw:

P1040012 (Medium).JPG P1030988 (Medium).JPG

The London pattern does not protrude below the cheek (boss) of the handle and consequently does not interfere with the depth sawing capacity. However, in practice we do not utilise that part of the saw to any great extent. It becomes of academic interest only and allows us to indulge in aesthetics to our extravagant heart's content.

kenyon-seaton-19-apple-02 blackburn tools handle.jpg

Going back to the like or dislike of such a shape, I have completely reversed my viewpoint on the style and now really like it. It helps of course to have exotic timbers. As to the secondary quality aspect, I will have to wait for Rob to turn that up. I had a quick look through my two Barley books, but could not find a reference. It may be a little like the Warranted Superior medallions. In America they were attributed to secondary lines, but that was not necessarily the case with British saws. I am not really aware of the American manufacturers using the London pattern handle.

Regards
Paul

Ps: In Simon Barley's "British Saws & Sawmakers from 1660," he makes a reference to identification of the era by the handle:

London pattern:

All saws c1780 - c1830
Al London saws until c1939
all common quality until c1910

**Bushmiller** · 7th July 2018, 10:41 PM

This is not the first time the topic of Kenyon saws has come up. These are some links that have ocurred just on these Forums:

Kenyon Inspired Dovetail Saw

Early 1800s Kenyon 10" Brass Back Saw

Copy of an 18th century Kenyon

I am more than happy for more links to be posted where people know of them.

Regards
Paul

**rob streeper** · 8th July 2018, 08:05 AM

Found the passage I was thinking of. On page 91 of British Saws & Saw Makers from c1660 the second full sentence reads:

In the Sheffield trade it was usual until well into the 20th century to fit the London pattern handle to lower quality saws...for it attracted only about 75% of the price of the crooked (Sheffield pattern) handle.

A discussion of the London pattern handle begins near the bottom of page 89. Early 19th century saws, and presumably the Seaton chest saws, of first quality were fitted with London pattern handles if they were made in London.

Thus, by fitting London pattern handles to 2nd rate Sheffield saws the Sheffield makers were disparaging the products of the London makers.

**Bushmiller** · 8th July 2018, 10:49 AM

Thanks Rob

I had missed that and as you point out it was a political move on the part of the Sheffield manufacturers. Quite a clever ploy actually, although a fairly despicable one!

Regards
Paul

**rob streeper** · 9th July 2018, 12:33 PM

And some say Disston was cutthroat...

**Bushmiller** · 9th July 2018, 12:43 PM

Simplicity raised the issue of the London pattern and it's origins with me.

He pointed out that there does not seem to be much information on the subject. Unfortunately that does seem to be the case. The London pattern doesn't necessarily pre-date the "crooked" lower guard as there are examples of that style from the earliest examples of saws. Why did it become popular and when, particularly amongst the London based manufacturers? Nobody knows, but if you have more information or even a theory, this is the place to voice that opinion.

However, we will have to ask the mods to delete anything regarding, the meaning of life, the Lockness monster, circles in wheat fields, the composition of black holes and the continuing existence of "the king" etc. etc...

Regards
Paul

**Bushmiller** · 9th July 2018, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by rob streeper

And some say Disston was cutthroat...

That may have just been a 'sore' point. Somebody once told me that there are no friends in business.

Regards
Paul

**rob streeper** · 9th July 2018, 12:46 PM

Curvy is sexier. The straight bottom looks unfinished and jarring compared to the rest of the handle.

**rob streeper** · 9th July 2018, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

That may have just been a 'sore' point. Somebody once told me that there are no friends in business.

Regards
Paul

"Friends" in business?

I think that it was a particularly bad case of sour grapes because Henry D., who hailed from Sheffield, went off to the new world, found success and then came back and showed the old Sheffield crowd how it should be done.

**Bushmiller** · 9th July 2018, 02:31 PM

The Disston company was either famous or infamous, a lot depending on how you viewed them and also what period of the Disston empire you are viewing. 'Ole Henry clearly did very well and was an exceptional innovator. To my mind his greatest impact on the manufacturing world of handsaws was the skewback style in 1874 in the guise of the D8: In itself it was probably not that radical a change and neither did it necessarily offer significant advantage over a straight back saw, but just the radically different look, curvy and sexy undoubtedly, was enough for the rest of the saw world to want one. As soon as the patents allowed, saw makers both sides of the Atlantic copied the style. By 1900 everybody who wanted a skew back had a skew back.

As well as innovation Disston was particularly good a patenting ideas and they were lodged and then fiercely guarded, which probably created some of the reputation. His other claim to fame was marketing. However, the product was good, because if it wasn't he would have failed. By the time the company did fail in 1955, the product was no longer what it was and the Disston shareholders had become both greedy and incompetent. The result was collapse.

As I have mentioned before in other threads Disston recognised the value of "owning" his employees and the township of Tacony was populated by Disston employees.

Just to bring in a little Kenyon content

, The Kenyon company employed a couple of hundred employees just a few years before their demise: Disston at one time employed 3,700.

Regards
Paul

Thread: Kenyon Saws

Thread Tools

Search Thread

Kenyon Saws

The Kenyon imitators

Similar Threads

Frames Saws/Bows Saws for re-sawing small boards 100mm deep

Copy of an 18th century Kenyon

Early 1800s Kenyon 10" Brass Back Saw

Kenyon Inspired Dovetail Saw

Table Saws vs Radial Arm Saws

Posting Permissions