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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Newcastle NSW
    Posts
    775

    Default Stenner ABM Table Saw Restoration

    Hi all,

    So a bit over a week ago I purchased an old stenner ABM sliding table saw, see (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f163/stenner-156676/) thread. It needs a bit of work so I thought I would post my progress, and hopefully also get some input along the way.

    Firstly I would like to thank Matty for the photos of the machine he posted in the above post.

    The table saw has spent the last week on the trailer in the garage (waiting for me to get the manpower and work out a way of getting it off). I opted for using an engine hoist. I have a tilt trailer and in the past we have just tilted it up and with the help of a couple of people slid the machinery off, but this is by far the heaviest item I have yet transported and the idea of just sliding it off sounded way too scary to try).

    P1020293.jpg
    Attachment 220273
    P1020295.jpg

    Not much time at the moment so unfortunately progress may be a bit slow, but below are some pictures of the sliding table setup:

    Broken locking pin removed (to slide table, unfortunately the arm was broken off by a forklift driver, which is what also happened to the adjuster wheels, fortunately they kept the arm, so hopefully I can fix it)
    Attachment 220275
    Attachment 220279

    sliding table mechanism from the front of the table (some bearings need replacing):
    Attachment 220276
    Attachment 220277
    Attachment 220278

    plate removed to reveal adjuster for sliding table (obviously designed to add trenching blades, I guess)

    Attachment 220280

    stop screw

    Attachment 220281

    knob for sliding table adjustment

    Attachment 220282

    No photos of the underside of the sliding table (far too heavy to risk turning over myself).

    Thanks,

    Camo

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    ottawa canada
    Posts
    266

    Default

    Camo

    a lot of parts like the the Wadkin pk. The table sidle open for a trenching head yes and to make blade change easy. I am going to love the thread.


    jack
    English machines
    All tools can be used as hammers

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia.
    Posts
    825

    Default The right choice.

    Camo, I saw a Wadkin PK on Ebay this week and pondered your thoughts,
    I think you have made the best decision purchasing the Stenner it is a very rare machine, yours will need a lot of TLC but once done you will have one of the best working table saws made.
    Camo, looking forward to more Pics and talk, in particular discussing how to cast up those missing Alloy handles, I have some ideas I would like to float.
    Love to see some pic's of the fence and any other accessories.
    Well done Mate !

    Melbourne Matty.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Newcastle NSW
    Posts
    775

    Default

    Hi guys,

    Matty thanks for your post (this has been turning me inside out for about 2 days, when I read H. post, I’m just glad I didn’t read it before the eBay auction was over, I’m a bit scared about what I may have done), I was really frustrated when I realised that a Wadkin PK had just sold, it’s funny how when you are looking for something no one is selling, and then when you stop looking all of a sudden one comes up for sale.
    Anyway the decision has been made, and I think I will like the Stenner more as a result of the extra time I will be putting in getting it working.

    I am very interested in hearing your ideas on casting, feel free to float your ideas at any time. I was thinking I might just cheat and see if I could get some large spoke handles from an otherwise distroyed machine (say a spindle moulder, mortiser, etc) and lie and tell everyone that I managed to find a set of original Stenner ABM handles. I figured I could get away with it as the two photo's I have found of Stenner saws that have previously sold are both fairly small, and both had different types of handles (Matty I am fairly sure the drawings you posted were of the ABL, which of cause had entirely different handles to the ABM).


    A couple more photos, the saw guard, fence, not original mitre, but still a solid piece of work (at least I don’t think it would be original, as everything else seems to have part numbers starting with A), and a sneak peak at the motor plate.

    Guard:

    Attachment 220466
    Attachment 220467
    Attachment 220468
    Attachment 220469
    Attachment 220470

    Fence:

    Attachment 220471
    Attachment 220472
    Attachment 220473
    Attachment 220474
    Attachment 220475

    Mitre:

    Attachment 220478
    Attachment 220479

    Machine plate:

    Attachment 220481
    Attachment 220472

    Motor plate:

    P1020341.jpg
    Attachment 220483


    It is interesting to find just about every part numbered, so maybe I will eventually make my own exploded diagram. Also most of the main cast sections seem to have the machine number stamped on them (machine No. 2010). I wonder if the machine number has any order to it (is this the 2010’th saw made, or maybe they started at a higher number).

    My first priority is to get to the motor and check it out (hopefully this weekend, I need to take that table top off to get too it).

    Jack I was wondering if you could share some information about the motor in the PK (this one looks to be similar, in the fact that it is direct drive, and from what I can see peeking through the inspection hole looks to be the same shape).

    Thanks,


  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    ottawa canada
    Posts
    266

    Default DMD motor

    looks like the very same motor to me. Not sure if it matters but your is a star winding not Delta. how are you powering the saw?

    The Wadkin PK had BTH = British Thompson Houston motors parts of the old GEC-AEI empire. BTH motors were latterly made at Brook Motors or Brook-Crompton in Huddersfield and now called Brook-Hansen.

    there is some information on the bearing in the wadkin PK manual too
    http://www.daltonsmachines.com/uploa...Saw_Manual.pdf


    here are some pics that Matty post on my thread, he may have more on the Motor.




    jack
    English machines
    All tools can be used as hammers

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Newcastle NSW
    Posts
    775

    Default

    Thanks for the info Jack, I was hoping it might be the same or similar motor (I'm definitely no motor expert, my dad worked in electronics so I basically know enough to get me into trouble).

    Excuse the ignorant response (if you were referring to something else let me know), but the motor is powered through a magnetic switch (control box in the table saw), the on off switch on the front of the saw activates this (looks very similar to what is in the PK manual). I have 3 phase power in the garage, so no VFD etc. required. I have run a 7.5hp induction motor with no problems so hopefully sufficient (I do have the ability to upgrade the breakers etc. if needed). Is this what you meant (I don't really have a great knowledge of the difference between delta and star)?

    Thanks,

    Camo

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Newcastle NSW
    Posts
    775

    Default

    Couldn’t wait until the weekend. I had a look inside the on/off switch to find a big short out burn mark, so I started to get worried it might have been something that affected the motor. So I decided the fixed table had to come off urgently so I could inspect and check the motor.
    Some more photos:
    The underside of the sliding table:
    Attachment 220765
    Attachment 220766

    Table top lifted off with the engine hoist (one heavy piece of cast iron):
    Attachment 220781

    Fixed table off:
    Cast of the body is approximately 16mm thick
    Attachment 220769
    The Motor
    Attachment 220770
    Attachment 220785
    Attachment 220783

    Trunion, tilt and raise mechanism
    Attachment 220779
    Attachment 220780
    Attachment 220782
    Attachment 220784

    Riving Knife
    Attachment 220783

    Fortunately after quite a bit of testing everything with the wiring seemed to be sound (except the busted switch). After temporarily bypassing the switch the motor turned over and it seems to run smoothly. The motor has two grease nipples (one at the front and one at the back, obviously for greasing the bearings). Given the build-up over the nipples I doubt these have been greased regularly (the Wadkin manual suggests greasing the motor every 3 months).
    Given that the motor bearings have probably not been greased regularly, would anyone have advice on if I should open the motor up and check the bearings (it doesn't sound noisy, and their does not seem to be any movement in the shaft), or would it just be sufficient to add some grease through the grease nipples (I have replaced sealed bearings before, but I have not had much experience with unsealed bearings)?

    Thanks,
    Camoz

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    ottawa canada
    Posts
    266

    Default

    Camo looks like parts have welded steel? my stenner have this to.


    More that likely the bearing are good. I can tell you that i have never found an old sealed bearing that was good but i have found good open. I would follow the instruction in the wadkin manual i linked and pull the rotor out of the motor to wash out the bearing of old dried grease. soak then in paint thinner and to not remove form the shaft. use air to blow them out but do not spin the bearing when cleaning as this can damage the bearing b/c they are dry.

    The problem is you don't know what type of grease is in there so just adding grease could give you problems with incompatibly. For new grease i would use a SKF general purpose motor bearing grease number 2 grade. you can get this at your bearing house.

    http://www.mapro.skf.com/lubrication/index_lub_e.htm
    Bearing lubrication - SKF solution for every application


    keep the pic coming.
    jack
    English machines
    All tools can be used as hammers

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Newcastle NSW
    Posts
    775

    Default Help needed with removing the motor rotor

    Hi Guys,

    So today I tried taking the motor apart to have a look at the bearings (followed the instructions in the Wadkin PK manual, thanks again Jack).

    So everything went according to plan, except when I got to step 8 (this motor does not seem to have a fan, or at least not one that I recognise as a fan Attachment 220904, so I assumed it was the ZF Type motor. After taking off the rear bearing locking nut Attachment 220902, I then proceeded to knock out the spindle from the tail end of the motor, this all seemed to go fine, the front bearing started coming out of the front housing, when the front bearing had fully cleared the front housing I expected the rotor to just slide out (and it does a bit, but then it stops coming out) Attachment 220906Attachment 220905Attachment 220907

    At this point I am now a bit confused, part of me says try to give it another couple of taps from the rear of the motor, but given that I can't really get the front bearing out enough to see what is stopping the rotor from just sliding forward, and I can see nothing from the back end that would suggest it shouldn't just keep sliding, I am too scared to proceed at this stage . My other thought was to just go ahead and try to take the front bearing off, as it looks to me like it needs replacing anyway, but I can see the front locking nut behind it, and I can't quite get the clearance to get my bearing puller in behind the bearing without the spindle coming out about another 10mm.

    If anyone has any advice or has experienced this problem before, I could really use some helpful advice at this stage, if not I think I will have to fork out some money to get someone to finish the job for me.

    Jack, regarding the welding, it actually looks quite a few sections have welded steel (I hadn't really noticed it all until you mentioned it), when I get a chance I will take some more photo's showing the welding.

    Thanks,

    Camoz

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia.
    Posts
    825

    Default Jacks your man !

    Camo,

    Looks like fun..lol
    I reckon that front bearing should press of the shaft, first up I would try a bearing puller that looks like this.

    It should slide that bearing of just enough forward to get the jaws of your other puller on to take the bearing right off the shaft.
    Both front and back bearing will be a press fit but once one bearing is off the shaft should slide of, the armature should not be that big inside the motor that it will not slide right out.
    Jack is your man when it comes to help with this, he walked me through the motor on my 493 Greenlee table saw when I replaced the bearings.
    I hope he chimes in !

    Melbourne Matty.

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    ottawa canada
    Posts
    266

    Default

    camo

    give that end of the shaft with the split nut a whack with a wood block it could be a slip fit on the rotor at that end . see if it moves. Your bearings look good and if you pull them you will have to replace. there no cheep trust me.
    try to remove with out pulling first. I will bet you have a self aliening double rowed in that back end with the split nut. not a cheep bearing my friend and them don't come sealed.
    there is also some slot screws on the motor side that may lock the rotor

    I need better pics to see.

    jack
    English machinees
    All tools can be used as hammers

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Newcastle NSW
    Posts
    775

    Default

    Thanks guys for the responses, I think my wife was sensing my frustration and has insisted I go away with her this weekend (I think she is glad that I have got some good replies though, as I think she is getting sick of me checking for responses on my iPhone every 30min...lol).

    Jack I will give the wooden block a go when I get back, I stopped using and sort of force once the bearing was free. I have a local bearing mob near me, so I think when I get home I will put the motor and everything in the car, and at least confirm the condition and cost of replacing the bearings (if needed).



    Thanks,

    Camo

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Newcastle NSW
    Posts
    775

    Default One Step Forward (I think)

    Well I figured I had given myself enough time to reflect on how to get the rotor out of the stator, and I have also determined the cost of replacing the bearings if needed.


    While trying to determine what bearing was on the blade end of the motor, I discovered that the bearing actually has to come off from the other end. I was trying to find a number on the bearing and discovered after wiping away the grease that the shaft is actually machined down were the bearing sits and so cannot be pulled off from the blade end of the motor.


    Hopefully this diagram gives a fair idea of what I am talking about:


    Attachment 221501


    After realising that I had everything backwards I decided to take off the bell housing on the blade side to get a better view on what was stopping the rotor from just sliding all the way through, and now I have got the rotor out of the stator, exposing the Shaft Collar and Grub Screw, which I have removed (a step forward, but then more confusion).


    My problem now is I am fairly sure the front bearing has to be replaced (unfortunately before I didn’t give a good picture of the front of the bearing, which would have shown the collapsed cage Attachment 221493Attachment 221494). I checked with the local bearing guy and he is saying it needs to be replaced (it doesn’t look right to me, and I am assuming he isn’t lying to me, as it was a pain for him to try to look up what bearing I needed, and yep not cheap, but still cheaper than I was expecting). Obviously if the bearing didn’t have to come off, I could just remove all the grease, grease everything again and then reverse the process as Jack has suggested.


    So what I am trying to determine now is how to get the rotor off the shaft to remove the bell housing, take off the bearing locknut, remove the bearing and replace it. The question is how do I take the rotor off the shaft?


    My first thought was I just need to pull it away from the blade side of the shaft, but now that I can’t see a keyway hole at the other end. I am left wondering if the keyway hole is just hidden below the purple part (see picture above) of the shaft (meaning this part is actually a shaft collar), and I just can’t see the hole as it is hidden between the bell housing and the bearing locknut, or does the rotor first need to be pressed towards the blade end of the shaft to reveal the full keyway (which can then be removed), before pushing the rotor fully off in the direction away from the blade end of the shaft.


    If I haven’t completely confused everyone by now as to what I am talking about, and anyone feels they can weigh in with an answer with the information I have given, I would really appreciate it (I find I am sure I will look back on this part as a learning experience, but I am keen to move on to making some old rusty parts shinny).


    Below are some more photos of the motor, but I am finding I just can’t get the camera in to get the shots I need, hence the diagram.

    Attachment 221495
    Attachment 221496
    Attachment 221497
    Attachment 221498
    Attachment 221499
    Attachment 221500


    Thanks,
    Camoz

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Katoomba NSW
    Posts
    4,770

    Default

    Camoz, I have pulled quite a few motors apart and replaced bearings over the years but I have never had to remove the rotor. The presence of that key does suggest that it comes off though.
    Where are you in Newcastle? I will be in town tomorrow and might be able to have a look with you. Two heads and all that.
    Those were the droids I was looking for.
    https://autoblastgates.com.au

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Newcastle NSW
    Posts
    775

    Default

    NCArcher,

    Thanks for the offer to come and have a look, but looking at your location (Singleton), I think I might be on the wrong side (I live at Morisset). I have looked up yellow pages and their seems to be quite a few motor rewinding guys on central coast, so I might have to go down and pick their brains (given that I need a new bearing, I might get a quote on getting them to replace it, they will probably get a better price on the bearing than I will anyway).

    If I have no luck with this, I have family up your way if you are happy for me to drop in (save you driving around to help me).

    Thanks,

    Camoz

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