Thread: R U a tool collector? Here's one to think of...

Originally Posted by auscab

Yours is Closer in style to these Tom . Be nice to have the other one .

MATCHED PAIR OF SIDE RABBET PLANES | eBay

The question I have for you is: Have you ever tried to cut and file your own highly complex plane blade? Something similar to what is in your link... When you do, you will appreciate how hard it is... Especially to make them the same. And when you see all the picture references on the web are exactly the same you start to think these aren't user made. The odds that two craftsmen, let alone the tens if not hundreds, hundreds of miles apart make side rebate planes that are so similar is ridiculously small...

And when you equate that with the holes in the historical records for a lot of tools... No I will not buy that these are user made

Here’s those pics I put up in June ‘21, my how time flies.
This is home made as far as I’m concerned.
Dunno where it’s hiding amongst the deck chairs currently.
Might find it before we hit the big berg.
H.

Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

The question I have for you is: Have you ever tried to cut and file your own highly complex plane blade? Something similar to what is in your link... When you do, you will appreciate how hard it is...

Ive spent my life making things .

Here's a tool I made . User made . Its a Bolting iron. Edited twice.

IMG_9891.jpg IMG_9892.jpg IMG_9893.jpg

I will stand by what I first said in post 5.

Originally Posted by auscab

Nice plane .
I can understand why a seller who knows his stuff and is honest called it user made. It looks user made. And there is Nothing to say its factory produced.
Its pretty much a one off for starters . Where's all the other examples matching it ?
Its above grade timber and no maker stamps on metal or wood if that's the case points to that.
Looks like Rosewood, BRW or a rosewood type as well . Is it ?
Factory made tools used the common standard timbers . Beech a lot of the time . And if they went further along the quality road and used BRW Mahogany or Ebony then even more reason to put your mark on it.
And user made can be as precise or even more precise than factory made if tha'ts possible.
Nothing wrong with user made .

Your plane irons don't look so hard to make . Ive made and shaped plenty more complex. The plane irons of most of the stuff the age of your plane also would normally be tool steel heat welded at the ends of the cutters . From this distance its impossible to tell . You check that and let us know . Its just an interesting point to check out. Doesn't mean they are original as Ive cut and used old tapered jointer plane irons for moulding plane blades as an easy way of getting a tapered blade with a tool steel heat welded end before.

Duh! Missed this one.
Owner/maker mark.
H.

Originally Posted by auscab

Your plane irons don't look so hard to make . Ive made and shaped plenty more complex. The plane irons of most of the stuff the age of your plane also would normally be tool steel heat welded at the ends of the cutters . From this distance its impossible to tell . You check that and let us know . Its just an interesting point to check out. Doesn't mean they are original as Ive cut and used old tapered jointer plane irons for moulding plane blades as an easy way of getting a tapered blade with a tool steel heat welded end before.

You have to realise that these are over 100 years old. So yes, we today, can make these quite easily. But a hundred years ago in the UK...


It wouldn't be tool steel, the blades would by high carbon steel. Remember, you have to have access to all the equipment to do an adequate job at hardening and tempering back after you've shaped them.

Over the past 30 years I've seen a variety of pics of these in pics and the blades are the same, screw footprint is very similar, if not the same (some are not), with the same screws, the wood looks like Rosewood (why are they all rosewood), the wedges, which are complex compound angels, are paper tight... Far too many similarities.

Originally Posted by clear out

Duh! Missed this one.
Owner/maker mark.
H.

Owners always marked their tools because of theft. That goes back hundreds if not thousands of years...

Originally Posted by clear out

This is home made as far as I’m concerned.
.

So, support your claim of home made...

Whats more interesting than going on about whether they were made in a factory or not is why did that style of all of a sudden become popular. It seems to me that the upright typical beech examples existed for a long time and could get into the side of a trench to take a skim . The Cast iron types like the Stanley 98 and 99 were more narrow and are great for trimming in much smaller slots.
So these wood single or double iron side rebates like in no 1 post with the wider cut can get into a narrow deeper slot. Who needs that in a plane ? The plow plane is usually sufficient for the joiner / cabinet maker.

The type in no 1 post looks like its closer to a coach makers rebate in its style but it low angle is more a end grain application possibly ?

I just came across these . An infill type of coach makers rebate plane. User made as well.
User-Made Coachbuilders T-Rabbet Infill Plane - The Infill Planes Showcase


https://www.oldhandtools.co.uk/unusu...e-rebate-plane

Originally Posted by auscab

Whats more interesting than going on about whether they were made in a factory or not is why did that style of all of a sudden become popular. It seems to me that the upright typical beech examples existed for a long time and could get into the side of a trench to take a skim . The Cast iron types like the Stanley 98 and 99 were more narrow and are great for trimming in much smaller slots.
So these wood single or double iron side rebates like in no 1 post with the wider cut can get into a narrow deeper slot. Who needs that in a plane ? The plow plane is usually sufficient for the joiner / cabinet maker.

The type in no 1 post looks like its closer to a coach makers rebate in its style but it low angle is more a end grain application possibly ?

I just came across this . An infill type of coach makers rebate plane. User made as well.
User-Made Coachbuilders T-Rabbet Infill Plane - The Infill Planes Showcase

That is a hell of a nice plane and not easy at all to make today, let alone 100 or more years ago. I have a real problem with these and other collectors that are quick to say user made... I think they default to that because a company didn't put a makers mark on it and or there's nothing in their catalogues... I would be very surprised to find that all makers stamped their work as opposed to putting their logo on packaging - just like they do today. And/or a small time cottage industry craftmen trying to eke out a living... And how refined that plane is, as far as I'm concerned, shows a great deal of skill that the vast majority of full-time woodworkers during that period don't have the time to gain. Today we are time, material and tool rich, they weren't so lucky back then.

And here's another thing to consider... What makes you think that every manufacturer signed their tools with their stamp? I've got quite a few antique tools that have no company markings on them at all.

And even more to consider... I don't know if you've made tools before but the first made never turns out perfect. That is surely not the first made by that craftman, that plane is quite impressive in design and execution... And when you consider it's definitely over a hundred years old, the craftman didn't have google to search out an ideal design to download and copy... It's far too thought out and made for me to believe is JUST user made.

I think you under estimate the ability of simple men or women committed to their passion. There are countless examples of supreme made at home thingamajigs that far exceed factory made items to behold bla bla bla .

Here on the forum you can see such things .

Have a look at what this carpenter did with his passion of clock making that changed the world for an extreme example.
He started off making wooden clocks .

John_Harrison_(Gemälde).jpg

John Harrison - Wikipedia

I should let sleeping dogs lie, I suppose, but having only just read through this thread, I can't help put in a few cents' worth.

For starters, I agree with Rob that Spin Doctor seems to underestimate what can be made by a committed person. Even relative newbies can produce excellent stuff if they try - Cklett did a remarkable job on his side rebate (I've had it in my hands), & it was one of the first planes he ever made. I'm only an amateur tool maker, but I see no difficulties whatever in making one of these side rebates. There is nothing about them that couldn't be accomplished with hand tools. There is much more complexity in a coffin-shaped dovetailed smoother, which can be built with nothing more than hand tools (& I have a little experience there). A hundred years ago (or even more) there was plenty of suitable materials available, and craftsmen of the day were sort of accustomed to using hand tools..

While there is a strong similarity between the planes that have been illustrated, there are sufficient differences to my eye to suggest they are more likely from individual makers. For example, the maker of SD's plane cut & filed the blade bed from a single piece, while one of the others has chosen to make the sole from two pieces (I see pros & cones either way). As Rob said, anyone making them in quantity would be unlikely to choose an unnecessarily expensive wood like BRW. However, there are many instances of superb tools made by craftsmen of the day using off-cuts of the fancy woods they were using for client jobs. I suspect the similarity arises because someone in a trade journal or something similar put up some plans and a few blokes thought "That's a good idea!" & set to making their own.

Just eyeballing them, I reckon they might be a little bit fussy to set up for an even cut, and the long, thin unsupported extension of the cutter might make them a bit chattery if you were too greedy with your cut. Dunno - unless I used one it's all just conjecture on my part. Maybe one day when I finish all the other things I plan to make I'll have a go at one, just for fun....

Cheers,

We'll have to continue to agree to disagree ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Nothing I've read or seen here, or elsewhere, compels me to change my mind that most are made by a cottage sized company.

No problems, SD. It's certainly possible such planes were made by a small specialist maker, but as Rob said, it would be strange for them not to use some kind of recognisable mark (but again, possible). I was mainly responding to your assertion that the planes are "too well-made to be user-made". That I will continue to disagree with....

Cheers,

Have been watching this thread but decided to remain mute, until Ian posted....

The Spin Doctor has a very cute little double sided side rebate rebate plane which he asserts is so well made that it must have been made in a factory. With respect, that assertion is diametrically apposed to the ethos of this forum.

Let us try an updated paraphrasing of that assertion;

All current Stanley planes are made in a factory and therefore must be better than anything made by hand by Ian Wilkie in his workshop.

Fiddlesticks.