Thread: Vintage vs Imported..

Well said Matty,
Couldn't agree more the time and effort put in to one of these machine's is a pleasure in itself, speaking for myself the pleasure in using a machine you have brought back into service is fantastic and the quality of the machine is undoubtedly greater than a lot of modern equipment available to most wood worker's if you can put in the effort you will be greatly rewarded in pleasure of use and the sense of achievement.
Regards Rod.

I'm interested in old machinery. If you happen to see any good deals I'm interested.

I vote for the old stuff. never bought new gear in my life except for acouple of toy thicknessers and they work well, that being said when there is real planing to do i still go back to the old robinson 24inch thicknesser,the old girl always does the job.

Well put Matty. A few years ago,fifteen, when i was a prime mover in auto detailing on Parramatta Rd dealing with the some of the strips well known dealerships i bought all new equipment (which you`d have to anyways) & it worked for me in that situation.I also bought a swag of new (insert brand name here) stuff as i was getting into building a cottage on some land.Figured if i were to be using it, it`d have to work equally as well.I wasn`t really captivated by it all though.Maybe it was just me.It/i just never felt quite right.I flogged it all off except the 9 1/4" c/saw.A boat anchor to use but it does what i want.And besides it cost $357 back then.Since then i only use/own good old school stuff.Primitive in some manner maybe but geez it feels good to use & does what i want well.

I well and truly agree most of my machinery is old and does a better job than may later built machines, I have a small thicknesser that has been running nonstop since it was built in the fifties, one of my neighbours hates it, although he is quite happy to makes use of my skills when he wants something machined. I have the intension to restore my machines when I purchase them on most occaisions I find they don't realy need it, so I start using them and never seem to be able to put one out of service so it can get a paint job etc

Matty,

I think you know I am definitely on your side of the fence with this argument. I would say I am only new to antique machinery and have a lot to learn, but what sent me down this path was a matter of necessity IMO for 3 main reasons:

• Planned Obsolescence
• Quality control
• Budget

If anyone is interested in Planned Obsolescence “The Checkout” on ABC explained it really well The Checkout - Episode 7 - YouTube 13min 10 second in). Am I paranoid (perhaps), but to give you what I consider to be some real case scenarios, scroll saw air pumps (the little rubber bellows type, it will definitely fail before the scroll saw does), drill presses with no pinch bolts to take up quill wear (the drill will become sloppy far earlier than it will ever wear out).

Regarding the consistency and fit for purpose you only have to search the web to find people recommending that you check out the floor model and if it is of good quality, insist that you want the one on the floor, not a brand new one that hasn’t been open yet (what does that say about quality control).

What I found most exciting when I started looking at vintage machinery is that I could actually afford the quality that I wanted, they are made to be repaired, and anything that wasn’t made to a standard just doesn’t exist anymore.

Originally Posted by China

I find they don't realy need it, so I start using them and never seem to be able to put one out of service so it can get a paint job etc

I think a lot of people shy away from the antique option because as Matty said they don’t want or don’t have the time to fix an old machine, but as you say there are a lot available that don’t really need anything done to them (I know a lot of what I have done from a mechanical standpoint was not necessary, I do it because I love to take it apart and make it all shiny, sometimes maybe more than woodworking). Sometimes I will say to my wife "look what I did to it", and she looks at me and says "why".

Getting back to more modern machines a couple of months back I managed to win this Waldown 3M in an auction (after getting a Waldown 2M, older drill press and loving it, this 3M will now replace my imported drill press).

photo 2.jpgimage.jpgphoto 1 (1).jpg

I paid far less than I would have on an imported pedestal drill press new, there is no way I could have afforded the $4000+ new price for a Waldown 3M. This machine is not old at all, but it is a very well made Australian machine, so there are also options for purchasing newer high quality machines for less than imported machines. This machine was 3 phase, but I have seen other single phase ones go for low prices (and of cause there is always the option to convert a 3 phase machine like this to single phase, or add a VFD). In the background of the picture of the Sher drill press is a Waldown bench grinder bought for the total of $10.21, I bought it because it had a wire wheel on it, and it was cheeper than buying a wire wheel for the other grinder.

I am not saying eventually I will never own a Chinese or Taiwanese machine, but if a vintage or second hand industrial equivalent is available instead, chances are that that is the option that I will take.

JMO

Cheers,

Camo

Matty,
great post...BUT, you are in a sub forum called...."ANTIQUE AND COLLECTIBLE TOOLS AND MACHINERY".
It would be pretty foolish to come here and contradict your opinions..

Like rocking up to the MG restores club and telling them that a (insert new Korean car maker) is far better.

Restoring old machinery is not for everyone. I know a couple of pretty competent window makers in Eastern Melbourne who have been trained on old machines, but apparently NEVER instructed in maintaining those machines. Blokes like them, you would expect, might be all over those old machines. But perhaps that was the task of the owner or just one senior staff member.
I was recently in another window makers workshop on the Mornington Peninsula, and they has some pretty amazing new European Machines with exotic oscillating cutters. As the bloke was showing me the machines, his father was setting up an old 6 cutter Wadkin. He had the cutters he had recently sharpened, the spanners, the calipers, and the torque wrench set out on a bench.

Perhaps the fragmentation of the Industry into small single a two man workshops that occurred in the 60s - 90s has severely limited the number of these machines kept in tiptop condition, and when we see them they have suffered from neglect and ignorance over a generation. ( like pushing redgum sleepers through a machine that contacts the cutter bolts before the cutter edge !! )

You are one of the few who has both the woodworking smarts, and the mechanical knowledge to make these are worthwhile proposition to purchase. I understand them from a mechanical perspective, but don't have the history on wood machining to apply it to that job.

We need the information you and others have, and the catalogues and manuals you have collected, to keep these great old machines in a good (and safe) working condition.

Thanks again for your help with my machines...

Regards,
Peter

I hope this entry doesn't get boring.
In my case one can blame BobL (well that is my excuse) Let me explain

When I first discovered this Forum, Bob was consistently logging in with his latest exploits milling timber from logs. I got the bug and made an Alaskan mill for my saw. Then I bought a bigger saw. It gave me a cutting maximum width of 300mm. I had an ELU under and over thicknesser. It worked OK on Radiata but complained if put hardwood through it (it had a max width of 170mm. I started to aqire a few more logs and my stash of timber started to grow. I then needed a thicknesser to take 300mm. Carba-Tec's range of thickys was just not affordable for me so I started trolling Ebay for older machines that were cheaper. But you need to put your timber over a Jointer first, then the thicky goes to work. I found a Jointer in Orange then a thicknesser in Brisbane. Even including retrieval costs it was cheaper to buy these over sourcing new ones. I also was after reliable strength in the machines to handle hard dry hardwoods so 3Ph powered machines were what I was after. To run these dear old girls I had to make a 3 Phase Converter so They could run off a 240Volt power point.
When all hooked up these old machines (have to be at least 1950's models) they can handle any timber you can put into them. As said before, I only checked them over to see that they were safe to use, and put them straight to work.
I knew that there is no substitute for mass and these older machines were certainly able to display that. Really there is not much to go wrong with them. They have an electric motor with 2 bearings and a shaft for the cutter bar with another 2 bearings. I ended having to do surgery to both because I used a grease that was just too stiff for the bearings. I had to disassemble and wash out the new grease and use a lighter grease. Any adjustments are done by hand (no computerised assistance) so they are very simple to keep in operating condition.
My latest aquisition (2 years ago) was an Italian SCM panel saw (manufactured in 1983). I was familiar with the style of saw as I worked with them for 16 years when I was working. It would go into the saw category as the 50 year olds because its HEAVY and simple in its design and operation.

Hey thanks every one for the great responses, it is wonderful to hear that folk are passionate about old woodworking machinery.
Pete, yes, you are right, reading your post I had a "oh yea, I am too" moment, yes I am probably preaching to the converted, but still, it is pleasant the hear everyones stories and experiences on how they arrived at this point to enjoy their woodwork with using vintage and imported woodworking machinery.

Camo's theory on Planned Obsolescence has got me thinking, so much of our society these days is geared this way, it is nice to wonder into your work shop for a tinker and run some timber through a machine, turning the solid cast iron handles by hand to adjust, listening to the geared feed rattle away....

Melbourne Matty.

PS. love to see pic's of your old robinson 24inch thicknesser one day one-thumb sounds like a nice thing...

I had an idea, years ago, when GMH did not have a ute in their line up of Commodore style vehicles, to scour the countryside and buy up all the HQ-HZ utes and one tonners and sit on them until they became valuable. (Never did)
So maybe we should all snap up any woodworking machine that is destined for destruction just to keep a supply for when others may want to up grade to an old machine.

Originally Posted by chambezio

I had an idea, years ago, when GMH did not have a ute in their line up of Commodore style vehicles, to scour the countryside and buy up all the HQ-HZ utes and one tonners and sit on them until they became valuable. (Never did)
.....................

chambezio,



Have you been looking in Matty's driveway?
Next to old woodwork machines...you guessed it!

Regards,
Peter

Great post Matty. In my opinion Old over new (machinery) wins hands down, and it also looks better.Last week, I was fortunate enough to pick up a totally original Dewalt 1600 RAS (240V). It had the original table and fence on it ,all fully adjustable ,and anti kick back pawl and scribe, and the hammertone finish on it is a nearly as good as new. It has no broken parts and everything on it works as it should. It cost $200, and the brand new LEDA equivalent would set you back about $3,500, and I doubt very much it would be of the same build quality. I vote for OLD. Cheers Greg

Mmmm. Must be mental telepathy.
I also have an old German lathe that no one seems to know what brand it is. It is over 100 years old. One metre between centres, gap bed and can accommodate 380mm swing over gap. Originally flat belt drive but now it is running with stepped pulleys to vary speed. It runs in bronze bushes at the head stock. It can cut threads too (when I learn how)

Originally Posted by chambezio

Mmmm. Must be mental telepathy.
I also have an old German lathe that no one seems to know what brand it is. It is over 100 years old. One metre between centres, gap bed and can accommodate 380mm swing over gap. Originally flat belt drive but now it is running with stepped pulleys to vary speed. It runs in bronze bushes at the head stock. It can cut threads too (when I learn how)

hope that aint the one i as eyeing up on ebay lol
missed a few on there lately