Is that a 12' GIS I see hull down on your horizon

I have been thinking about SOG.

What about giving him a bit wider run aft, similar to a 29er or the 49er shape, but not as much, so that it can have the potential to carry more sail and plane upwind? To help this, a simple optional outboard hiking platform in the style of the RS100 and the D1.

I really would like to see the cockpit drainage sorted. I've watched kids sailing at the Bay this summer and what fun they have been having on boats that drain well like the Open Bic. Capsizing or doing stuff that risks a capsize is all part of the fun for the young sailor these days so I think a boat that is going to be built for a young family needs to drain well. I think this is the problem with the Opti these days. It just doesn't look cool enough and you can't have as much fun with them because they need bailing.

As for the rig, there are plenty of options for this boat, from a home made GIS style rig to the simple Laser choice of 4 rigs (Rooster, Std, Radial, 4.7). Cheap sails costing $150 are available now, so I think that needs to be considered. There are now lofts worldwide making well made Laser training sails, so a family could have three different sails for around $500. The Rooster option is for the bigger Dads or for exciting sailing with the hiking platform installed :)

For those that don't know the Laser rigs, there is one top section that suits all 3 Laser legal rigs. The difference is in the bottom sections, with the smallest of them, the 4.7, having a permanent bend in it. The Rooster 8.1 is not a Laser product, but was designed for guys over 90kg that want to sail the family Laser in an organised comp. The sail area is 8.1 sqm or 87sq ft. It uses the standard lower and upper mast but has a mast extender between the two. All 4 rigs use the same boom.

I really want to see this project get up, but feel it does need an injection of a bit more "cool" for these times. The bow is getting there but at the moment it kinda looks out of place without a more contemporary, wider bum. Just my thoughts :;

I've also been thinking about this boat, but in the context of what my (new) local club (Humpybong at Redcliffe) seems to be looking for.

Currently the club has (owns):
* A bunch of new Optis for the kids (gee.. they are ugly.. and the trainer hates them because of how much water they take on in a capsize)
* 2 Corsairs for adult learn to sail (currently what I'm learning on - very nice, but HEAVY and seem fairly sluggish - I still haven't been out on a decent 10-15kt day so perhaps my perception will change after that)
* A 49er that was donated to the club and in need of refurb
* 3 Mirrors also in need of some TLC - 2 are in sailing condition and just need varnish and one needs a bit of structural work;

Most of the racing guys in the club seem to have Nacra cats or lasers.. tons of lasers.. They look really fun and I can't wait to have a go (and no doubt get wet);

Ultimately they are looking for a fleet boat that the kids can step into once they've outgrown the Optis.

There are a couple of guys talking about building Sabres over winter, but they just seem too damn expensive and complicated to rig; Probably affordable if you can pickup a cheap second hand boat for the running gear, and maybe build a new hull.

The 49er looks beautiful and I can see a timber version of her;

Whatever is the solution, I think if it can use the cheap laser (or similar mass produced) training sails, that is key - there's a lot of effort in building a nice hull, and by the time you're finished, you just want to get a rig on it and go. Also just discovered Sailrite kit sails - seems a pretty economical way to get a nice sail.

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Originally Posted by duncang

I've also been thinking about this boat, but in the context of what my (new) local club (Humpybong at Redcliffe) seems to be looking for.

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This is always the dilemma for clubs looking to grow. Everyone has different needs. There are boys and girls, brothers and sisters, Mums and Dads, Husbands and Wives, Granddads and Grandmothers, and even Great Granddads and Great Grandmothers! Some want to sail single handed, some want a double hander. This is why regional clubs end up with a mish mash of boats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by duncang

There are a couple of guys talking about building Sabres over winter, but they just seem too damn expensive and complicated to rig; Probably affordable if you can pickup a cheap second hand boat for the running gear, and maybe build a new hull.

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The Sabre is a great little boat which was once quite cheap to own and race competitively, but this is not the case any more. Most of the top boats are certain hull shapes that are professionally built and the rigs are more sophisticated. However, it's still relatively cheap compared to the cost of some other boats.

A really nice 2 handed boat is the Taser. There are plenty of nice 2nd hand ones around too for not much money, and the class is strong. For a 2-up junior boat, I don't think you can go past the Flying 11. Again, cheap 2nd hand boats are available and the fleets at the big regattas are staggering. Then of course is the ubiquitous single hander, the Laser. The thing can cater for all sailors from juniors to great granddad, so its not surprising there are lots of them. Sail numbers are north of 203000 now.

It seems that a smaller 12 ft boat along the lines of the Laser concept is in the back of a lot of people's minds.

As I have stated before, I think it would be great to use the laser rigs as they are readily available, offer a lot of different sail areas, but foremost are cheaply obtained (training sails + spars), a lot cheaper than I can have a custom sail made for me and build the spars for.

What about something a tad (2ft) longer along the lines of this:

Die Daten - ABC - Seggerix: Sägen, Nähen, Kleben - Fertig!

Big flotation tanks under the foredeck and sidedecks, small thwart still allowing the boat to be moved under oars for a bit if desirable. Using 4 and 6 mm ply it should be possible to keep it very light.

What do you think?

Best regards,

Joost

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joost

It seems that a smaller 12 ft boat along the lines of the Laser concept is in the back of a lot of people's minds.

As I have stated before, I think it would be great to use the laser rigs as they are readily available, offer a lot of different sail areas, but foremost are cheaply obtained (training sails + spars), a lot cheaper than I can have a custom sail made for me and build the spars for.

What about something a tad (2ft) longer along the lines of this:

Die Daten - ABC - Seggerix: Sägen, Nähen, Kleben - Fertig!

Big flotation tanks under the foredeck and sidedecks, small thwart still allowing the boat to be moved under oars for a bit if desirable. Using 4 and 6 mm ply it should be possible to keep it very light.

What do you think?

Best regards,

Joost

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Hi Joost, great to hear from you.

Personally, I think the 12' concept is a good one. It keeps the transport and storage of the boat simple and minimises the sheets of ply needed and therefore keeps building costs lower.

While boats with side tanks can be kept light in weight, like in the Impulse at 47kg, I'd prefer a double bottom without side tanks because the rear tank can be eliminated which can then facilitate immediate cockpit drainage. If you add modestly sized hiking wings, the side tanks are not needed and you can also carry more sail for a higher performance. In addition, no rear tank can also facilitate a curved transom traveler sheeting arrangement so that boom angle can be controlled better.

Obviously, I am not thinking about any rowing capability for the SOG at all :)

If the laser rig is used, the boom might extend past the transom, but this may not necessarily be a problem, except that it will go in the water at a lesser heel angle. Good incentive to sail the boat flatter!

Just on the Laser rig as a possible option, I want to point out that we are talking about non-Laser products here. The cheap "training" sails are not Laser sanctioned, so they don't come with the Laser logo or class emblem, they are just a white sail. However, there is nothing wrong wth the quality, they are very good. I have one.

The Rooster sail is different to the Laser sails in that it is separately licenced to Rooster Sailing. The Rooster 8.1 comes with a mast extender and battens.The sail is a bi-radial construction and has a mylar leech to minimise stretch. Price is GBP410, or about AUD636/US661. I think it still represents good value given that it can be sent anywhere in the world in a fairly compact package for not too much postage money. However, Rooster does have agents in some countries (Asia Pacific and North America) so for these it is local postage. I guess you could ask for a sail without the logo?

For more info, Google Rooster 8.1. For a Radial sailor, it looks BIG!

Joost, there is a boat from your neck of the woods called the EPS Laser. Never heard of it before, have you seen one?

a Dutch 'Laser EPS' page

Hello Bruce,

No, I have never seen this one. Fast but I can't say that I am all that taken by the looks of it.

I agree that having wings (the route Dudley Dix has taken with his bigger Paper Jet 14) would allow more of a performance package and the double bottom would indeed allow easy drainage of the boat.

Side decks and a large foredeck would float the boat high in the water, so not much water should be in the boat after righting it from capsize. Of course always more that with a self draining bottom.

The main reason for me proposing it is however ease and strength of construction as the boat I envision would be a balance of the following:
- ease and strenght of construction
- keeping the materials in the boat to a minimum. Plywood is, in the Netherlands, somewhat affordable (appr. EUR 65 per sheet for 6 mm okoume Bruynzeel marine ply), timber is a lot more expensive (as an example, my GIS used 6 sheets of 6 mm ply for which I paid EUR 300, all required timber came in at EUR 1200 or so...). I know that this varies in a lot of countries and I can imagine that in certain places it may be the other way round.
- good performance. If top performance is requested, it would make sense to me to go "plastic" and opt for an RS. The boat should however be no slouch.
- affordable rigging per the non-Laser rigs (both sails and spars). It is impossible to build something from scratch, including the sail for less (in fact, it will cost a lot more!).
- I think we all agree that various rigs for the same hull would be key making it a true family boat (I for example would for sure need the Laser standard rig or even the Rooster 8.1 with my bulky 85 kg, my girlfried with her 60 kg the Radial sail, my kids, when they grow bigger, perhaps the 4.7).

Just my thoughts on a boat that may appeal to a larger audience (but I could be completely in the wrong here!).

Best regards,

Joost

Hi Joost

Actually, I think we are both thinking along similar lines and the points of difference are not that great. A 12 footer in ply is always going to be much lighter than plastic, so I think a boat around the 45kg mark should be easily achievable.

I agree that EPS is plain ugly and the transom treatment is just rubbish. It has too many design failures for it to be a great boat. However, it does have some interesting features. The hiking wings slide on rails. This is quite a cool way of adjusting for the conditions or the weight of the crew, so I would be inclined to borrow that idea. It has those short stays attaching at the gooseneck. I presume this is to provide additional support due to the low mast tube height not being able to support the mast. I would consider this one of the design failures, together with that transom and just makes rigging more complicated than it needs to be. Looking at the YouTube video, the thing sails like a submarine on flat water, so it will be rubbish in a decent chop.

Hello Bruce,

Good discussion and I also truly hope that this project gets up.

I see your point and agree that for top-performance the hiking wings would be a very good feature to have.

Would this however mainly improve top-performance as, with a choice of various rigs per the Laser concept (4 rigs between 8.1 and 4.7 m2) there is sufficient choice to rig it for the crew's weight?

Don't get me wrong: I like performance! It is however also a question of how complicated the boat can be to either appeal to people or to be rejected as too difficult/expensive to build and/or too complicated to sail (complicated boats appeal and so do simple ones, it just depends on the targeted audience of the boat which design would be right). Also the standard Laser rigs themselves may not survive the additional stress created by the additional leverage of such hiking wings (just thinking out loud here).

So, a bit more invesitation, and foremost calculations, would be necessary to see whether such hiking wings would be viable without having to resort to, for example, an expensive carbon mast. If technically possible, it would be great to have this as an easily bolted in add on leaving the choice to the builder!

Best regards,

Joost

Home build version of Truc12

http://www.crusyacht.it/i/foto%20truc12.2.jpg

The Truc12 does have some appeal. The thing must cost a bomb, so taking the concept and improving on it while making it an affordable home built performance boat aligns with our ideas.

There is a YouTube video showing the Truc12 going upwind in about 15 kts. Perhaps wings are not needed on "our" boat as you say Joost?

I don't understand why the Truc12 doesn't have a mainsheet traveler? Perhaps this is because of the twisty full battened rig. However, it does give away a lot of power. If the Laser rig is used, it will need a traveler. Of course "ours" will have a hard chine aft and be lighter than Truc12, so will beat it around a course!

Hello Bruce and Brian,

The Truc seems to cost between EUR 7500 (smallest rig) to EUR 8100 (biggest rig). So yes: quite expensive.

Truc for sure has the looks which are a key element of the boat. That is probably why a traveller is missing: not to spoil the looks and to keep things very simple. The double bottom is nice but why not a simple foredeck with a tube to support the mast (stronger, more flotation).

Wings would make the boat more complicated. And using a Laser rig (mandatory replica sails!) is key I think to keep costs down and to keep such a project fun from a cost perspective. With the right hull shape and the right sail area, why couldn't "our boat" not be a good performer, even without hiking wings!

For sure it will win on weight and cost!

Joost

Yes a foredeck to support the mast. It doesn’t need to be tube as a simple step and partner works fine as we all know. The Truc12’s carbon mast must be incredibly strong as the support is very short. Just goes to show what can be achieved with carbon.
I’m just wondering if the transom was concave instead of convex, would a traveller run freely enough when tacking and gybing? I’m just thinking that the boom would be held at the corner better when sheeted in and the wind is light if it is concave. This also allows more tension to be put on the leech to help pointing when going upwind.
With big-roached sails like the Truc12, getting enough tension on the leech is a problem and the top part tends to fall off a lot which loses power. Perhaps the designer intends for that to happen to make the boat more forgiving to sail in a stiff breeze? Looking at the videos on YouTube, the Truc12 leech is opening a lot in the gusts like the GIS sail does, depowering it, but it is a big sail, not much smaller than the Rooster 8.1. With the Laser rigs, in a strong breeze you will have to vang sheet instead as it won’t twist off nearly as much, which makes me think the Rooster 8.1 will produce a fair bit more power than the Truc12's sail.

As far as a low cost club racer goes, there is the point that MIK originally
designed the Goat to work with a second-hand Laser rig. The 'proper'
balanced lug is faster, but the laser is an option for those who insist on a
'modern' rig...
cheers