Thread: Is that a 12' GIS I see hull down on your horizon

MSD Sport 12 (simple and covering the purpose of the boat)

MSD Long Awaited 12 (true!)

MSD Ultimate 12 (to sell it to a young audience)

MSD Max 12 (when you put Max in the name, it will sell for sure )

MSD X 12 (same as above, but a bit less noisy)

MSD F&S 12 (fast & simple)

MSD Racer 12

(Obviously some more serious than others and oh, MSD = Michael Storer Design)

Originally Posted by davlafont

Huzzah, huzzah! The 12er is coming, the 12er is coming!

snip

Now... what *is* that standing figure to the right of the boat up to? Is he giving a sort of salute? Or did you catch him whoop-whoop dancing?

I always thought he was scratching his head. He's appeared in several designs. I think the first was the Dayboat/Launch or TC35 live aboard riverboat. I think he was navigating or cooking or something.

MIK

Hi Brian,

Yes .. I have the mast bend accurately worked out for the OzRacer PDR rig over the four masts and four sails we built a few years back to get it right. So that's my starting point.

The problems then become that if you use a sock luff .. the square mast won't allow the battens to rotate to the leeward side. The O'pen Bic website has mentions of this problem even with their round fibreglass mast and suggest some careful whittling down of batten tip length.

So that might mean a track ... I found one from Paskal that is international ... so that is one solution. But I haven't found a price.



Paperjet uses a plastic tube faired and carboned to back of mast ... but the plastic starts moving and the carbon cuts the sail.

At the moment I am inclined towards a rotating timber mast with a gap at the back covered with 4mm ply then a saw run up the middle. Australians have experience with these types of rig and I have some data. But the ply back to the mast is novel as far as I know. This is a boat from the early 1980s.



But I'm worried about the complication there ... but maybe it is a simple three stay rig and the other adjustments would have been there anyway.

Or a laser mast ... but that's expensive whether you have a whole mast to buy or a whole second hand laser ... not a certain enough "supply chain". And might be quite high for a 12 ft boat.

I think having the different options is worthwhile though.

MIK

I am loving the concept and will build this next. I was leaning towards the i550, but that can wait!

As for a name I like the S360 which is the length in centimeters.

I am in favor of a simple stayed rig. Then an asymmetric kite could be added.

Tim

I'd rather keep it simple Tim, but I won't stop sensible experimentation!

The long foredeck might mean the prodder can be quite short compared to normal.

The distance between the centreboard and rudder is more than some of the boats I have done in the past because I know these far aft centreboard locations work Ok if the hull is nicely balanced when heeled - a reason for the modest transom width.

But if looking at asymmetricals ... I would just epoxy finish the transom in case you need to add a rudder gantry to move the rudder further aft. It is an easy adaptation and I wouldn't do it until needed .. don't like adding things before they are proved to be needed!

ARe you talking trapeze too? The mast support could be easily changed to a keel stepped arrangement with side control with a rectangular slot at deck level. Might be a little bit of fiddling with the hull to deal with the stresses .. but nothing difficult or complicated.

Hmm .. sounds like a TURBO version - haha. I just started worrying about the cost. But that part is up to you. I might have some useful suggestions about how to keep cost for that type of boat down too. But it will be cheaper than a 18 foot i550.

Looks like I will have to work up some sensible rig/class specifications depending on what ppl end up doing.

MIK

Hi Joost,

I had a little bit of a game last night when I realised there are so many versions of the name Elizabeth.

I used BETH for no reason at all other than it fitted the boat.

But if I had realized I could have all my designs named

Elizabeth,
BETH
Liz
Liza
Lizzy
Libby
Betty
Bett
Eli
Ellie
Ella

Would have been fun on the plan catalogue page .. but we are too many years after the chance to do it.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

ARe you talking trapeze too? The mast support could be easily changed to a keel stepped arrangement with side control with a rectangular slot at deck level. Might be a little bit of fiddling with the hull to deal with the stresses .. but nothing difficult or complicated.

Hmm .. sounds like a TURBO version - haha. I just started worrying about the cost. But that part is up to you. I might have some useful suggestions about how to keep cost for that type of boat down too. But it will be cheaper than a 18 foot i550.

Looks like I will have to work up some sensible rig/class specifications depending on what ppl end up doing.

MIK

Hi MIK, my intention was to move it slightly away from being a cheap laser into more of an alternative to the RS100, which has a small kite and a rotating mast supported by sidestays only (see below).

I'm getting too old for trapeze, but nobody is too old for hiking and fast reaching across the bay!

Well, I do have a Laser that I could steal the mast from, I also have a mast and boom from a Geary 18 trapeze boat that perished a few years back. 24' long, spreaders, trapeze harnesses, boom vang, cunningham/highfield lever, battened sail that is so stiff it creases if you fold it. In moderate winds it was too much for the 18, in the 12er it would be off the hook. I also have a complete rig from a Mirror 16 (not the 12), including the roller furling jib and spinnaker, but again, too much sail for anything but a whisper of wind.

Rick Landreville
Rosedale B.C. Canada.

Originally Posted by tpb03

Hi MIK, my intention was to move it slightly away from being a cheap laser into more of an alternative to the RS100, which has a small kite and a rotating mast supported by sidestays only (see below).

I'm getting too old for trapeze, but nobody is too old for hiking and fast reaching across the bay!

Might not have enough beam to hold so much sail up. But keep thinking about it ... there might be a way.

The RS was Stg7000 a couple of years ago including launching trolley and cover.
http://www.rssailing.com/index.asp?s...100&ss=Reserve

I'm hoping it will have some of the nice feel of an NS14 - refined speed with little feeling of fuss.

MIK

I'm happy to build as standard first and then tinker with bolt on bits after I get a feel for how it sails. I'm starting to think about spinnakers for my Oz Mk II.

I can help you work out minimal ways of making sure the structure will be adequate for later mods.

Just small things. Pads for prodder, covering stay loads, mast thrust. Tiny bits of ply will deal with most.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

The problems then become that if you use a sock luff .. the square mast won't allow the battens to rotate to the leeward side. The O'pen Bic website has mentions of this problem even with their round fibreglass mast and suggest some careful whittling down of batten tip length.

MIK

What about camber inducers used in windsurfing rigs? They will hold the tip of the battens firmly and force the battens to rotate.

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Or a laser mast ... but that's expensive whether you have a whole mast to buy or a whole second hand laser ... not a certain enough "supply chain". And might be quite high for a 12 ft boat.

MIK

Second hand ones should not become to expensive. Further to this you can buy Laser replica masts in the UK at GBP 205 and in the Netherlands for EUR 210. Possibly more expensive that making a wooden mast (depending on how it will finally be made) but possibly not overly expensive. If too long, I guess a saw will make short work of that .

A wooden T-section boom would work okay I guess (easily made and practicle)?

Joost

The side decks look to separate into three sections. Nice wide side decks too, very comfortable.

Thinking about the middle section. Solway Dory are just completing 2 ply decked Shearwaters and they have done something quite interesting and might apply here.

Wall Photos | Facebook

They did some climbing back on board trials using the bailer bucket over the side to help steady the canoe as they climbed in. Worked well but needed perfect adjustment of the rope length and the bucket did not always fill as they wanted.

So, on these new boats they have drilled the deck of the central side deck tank, and drilled a drain hole at cockpit floor level for air to go out and water to drain out after a capsize. So, in a capsize the boat sits a bit lower in the water as the tank fills which helps prevent inversion and then gives weight to pull against when climbing back in.

Swallow boats found their Bayraider very stable when inverted, and this new design could be very stable too. So they just allowed one side to fill, as do Solway. I think allowing either side to fill means whatever side the boat lies on, the lower deck tank will flood. Pull her up and the weight of water is nicely opposing your weight as you climb in. Water then drains steadily into the floor and out the transom.

I reckon two piece standard alloy tubes are by far the simplest choice. Sail sliders made from 1" hoops of plastic drain pipe. Sail only attached to these hoops. Say 6 of them, 3 battens attached to every other hoop. Battens from local sailmaker, profiled as per windsurfer battens with a belt sander in a couple of minutes for each one. Very simple to make and cheap to buy, 4mm dyneema shrouds would allow a much lighter mast section and give way better upwind performance. It's the only way your ever going to keep the mast as straight as in the drawing. No shrouds means all that horrible block to block rubbish that the Laser suffers upwind.

Brian

Excellent discussions on the rig, so with time and a few people thinking hard, some good solutions will come about. So far there are no solutions to a rig that will come in under AU$1000, even for a lo-tech one. Likely there isn't one rig that will be THE rig solution for this boat, but rather 2 or 3 solutions for builders to go for. This was the case with the GIS until the lug rig won out, and what a wonderful solution that was for the boat?

As a starting point, the following is what we know is the cost for one option. Later as other ideas come forward, those options can be costed as well.

The costing for a brand new replica Laser Radial rig is as follows. This is assuming that you buy all replica parts from a popular UK supplier. (Australia and the USA have their own replica parts outlets) Note that these prices include the 2 ball bearing sheet blocks on the boom, ss vang and block attachments, plastic end caps, mast joiners, gooseneck, sail, battens, sail bag, and telltales, so not bad value at all really. Also, the plastic caps ensure the mast and boom are water tight.

Upper mast: GBP85.00
Lower mast: GBP120.00
Boom: GBP98.00
Sail: GBP160.00
Total: GBP463.00

Prices in other jurisdictions will vary, but would be approx AUS$800 and around US$600.