Thanks: 0
Picture(s) thanks: 0
Results 76 to 90 of 560
-
24th April 2012, 02:54 PM #76
Thankyou all for your spurring on.
I'm currently working on the OzRacerRV which is the first sailboat I have done for some time.
I did like some things about the truc. The downsides I've seen is a photo with an adult and teenager aboard and half the cockpit floor is wet from water coming in the stern.
Also it is an old style hullshape comparable with an Australian 1980's form. "big wide planing surfaces" as the back of the boat have been shown to be quite inefficient and don't take the advantages of the balanced handling in waves and when heeled of more modern shapes with more evenly distributed hull volume. Also doesn't get the easy movement through to "planing" speeds without pause or transition to bow-up trim to get the stern to the right angle to develop enough lift. Much better to have volume and surface through the body and bow of the boat because those areas are already at the right angle to get lift without a wild bow up trim.
The NS14, non foil skiff moths, UK Cherub, National 12, 49er, 29er and others have moved well away from the 1980 hullforms reducing the volume of the hull above the water, rocker, increasing the flatter surface (In a narrow way - more U shaped than veed) up into the bow of the boat
This is the 29er stern
But then ... it's all talk from me until I actually do something
As for what was once the OZ PDRacer Mk3 - It will now be labelled the OzRacerRV.
Then next task is tax for my mother who can't see it well enough.
Then I'll need some project to keep me going. I think I will keep the idea separate from the Son of Goat - because the overlap is uncertain and as soon as I link it to the Goat I put a great deal of pressure on myself ... What if it isn't as good as the Goat!?!
Or doesn't overlap with the Goat's functions enough.
I can always label it after it shows that it works well enough to deserve a particular name.
Michael
-
24th April 2012 02:54 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
- Join Date
- Always
- Location
- Advertising world
- Age
- 2010
- Posts
- Many
-
24th April 2012, 04:17 PM #77
Hehe, the irony is that Mik's balanced lug is probably the more modern rig . While I have never seen a pic of the GIS with the Laser rig, nor has it been tested as to which would be faster, I think that would be a fair asumption. Allowing for small inefficiencies in the lug sail, at 9.7 sqm it has a few more horsepowers than the Laser std at 7.06 sqm.
-
24th April 2012, 05:22 PM #78
Exactly ... when I designed it I though .. two people NS14 has 100 square feet.
Lose something out of the lack of modern sail controls on the lug ... so up to 105 square feet.
Also assumption that the single sail would be more powerful in many conditions than the two sail rig of the NS14. Fast boats only carry one sail ... right!? There is some advantage in the sloop for crosswind reaching ... but all other points it seems to be a nett loser.
But the general idea was that the sail would be less adjustable because of the simple controls so the area was tweaked up a little. AND you can reef it.
Regarding travellers ... you seldom see travellers in racing dinghies these days. Most are vang sheeting ... so boom vang takes all the up and down load and the sheet only brings the boom in and out.
While a properly located downhaul on the lug can prevent excessive twist there is still some upwind advantage from being able to pull the boom down because of the traveller. But if I designed a boat with a modern bermudan mainsail with vang I would just use a bridle with a loop in the middle. Just the like OzRacer sprit rig. It is so low cost.
MIK
-
24th April 2012, 08:20 PM #79
Hi Mik, good to have you weigh in with your thoughts. With the Laser rig and the rope traveler like we have on the GIS, we vang sheet a lot as per your explanation above. This is because the Laser sail has lots of luff curve and we need to bend the mast, even in quite light winds. However, the vang pushes the mast forward to bend the mast but the leech doesn't get quite enough tension, so sometimes we have to release some vang and use mainsheet to create leech tension from the mast tip. Usually this is in medium winds when we can hold the boom down block to block all the time. In the absence of a traveler, the boom would want to come in to the centre. With the Laser rig this kills performance, so like the GIS, the traveler needs to be bar tight all the time to hold the boom out at the corner.
Is the bridle you mentioned similar to the one on the 49er/29er?
-
25th April 2012, 12:50 AM #80
Laser, Laser, Laser... I don't get it. Clearly the Laser is a great little boat. But all this talk about a StorerBoat using Laser rigs is a bit off putting to me. The option was/is there for the GIS and it hasn't gotten much traction. The PDR world is totally about developmental freedom from the waterline up and it doesn't seem to be dominated by used Laser rigs.
If the Storer12 must benchmark against the Laser performance-wise, fine. But I think the evidence shows that the StorerBoat builder is more likely to build his own rig than graft some used, hand-me-down, not invented here set-up.
I guess there's a line reasoning that runs toward economy which assumes that the lower the cost, the more accessible the build. I think there's a economic floor below which cost savings are moot. Consider the OzRacer MkII vs. III. Once MIK made the jump to an additional sheet of ply, the design freedom opened up. I doubt many potential builders will be turned away by the additional cost. Hey, I'm not made of money. But if I can afford to build a $500 boat, I can afford to build a $600 boat. Or I can't afford either. I think the same will hold true for a Storer12. If it will cost on the order of $2000-4000 to build, will the cost delta between a used Laser rig and a bespoke rig really be a barrier to entry?
MIK, you see I can't bring myself to refer to the Laser-like concept as a Son-of-Goat. I think you know that many Goats get used as single handers despite your design brief. In MY humble opinion, the true GIS Jr. is the single hander/junior version of the plumb bow, graceful sheer, highly utilitarian, yet sporty-responsive Goat that so many of us love. Now that my 3D GIS hull is consuming the entirety of my garage, I can honestly say that I would have built an SOG over the GIS if both were available a year and a half ago.
A Laser wannabe? Why not just buy a used Laser and call it a day?Dave
StorerBoat Builder, Sailor, Enthusiast
Dave's GIS Chronicles | Dave's Lugs'l Chronicles | Dave's StorerBoat Forum Thread
-
25th April 2012, 01:58 AM #81SENIOR MEMBER
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
- Location
- Tilburg, the Netherlands
- Age
- 51
- Posts
- 519
As MIK has indicated, this design proposal is not regarding the SOG at all, but a more sailing performance oriented sail boat with a different function (i.e. not all-round performance in a traditional looking package).
We have a couple of threads discussing a smaller 12 ft boat and I believe that the discussion concerning a smaller 12 ft boat has always been two part:
- on the one hand a smaller GIS, called SOG, which would be a smaller version of the GIS sporting the same rig, having the same layout and especially having the same function (i.e. good sailing qualities and decent rower).
- on the other hand a 12 footer that is more sailing oriented aimed at maximum performance (within the parameters of cost effectiveness and ease of construction).
A few people (including me!) shouting "Laser, laser, laser" has got to do with a couple of things:
- lot of rigging options (4 different rigs). When you want to outfit the boat with two different rigs, for example to meet the family requirements, it will be a cost efficient solution.
- relatively cheap replica parts (spars and sails). A performance boat would be expected to have a more modern rig (please note that I am not saying that the GIS's lug is not performing, at the contrary, I am very much taken by the performance it delivers).
A few post back (page 1 actually of this thread), I have listed the following cost analysis:
What may make sense for the fast "wooden laser" one is to use the laser rig. A lot of it can be obtained either second hand or one can purchase (at least here in Europe) replica parts. A replica Laser sail only cost GBP 179, a lower mast GBP 120, an upper mast GBP 85 and a boom GBP 98: total GBP 482 (EUR 550 / AUD 735). For comparison's sake, I paid USD 550 (EUR 385 / AUD 510) for my GIS sail alone and on top of that EUR 111 (USD 160 / AUD 150) import duties!
If not wanting to use the Laser sail, it would make sense to me to at least use the (replica) spars: wood construction would both be heavy and would ask more of one's woodworking skills (bird mouth construction, I just don't have the tools to do this kind of work); custom alu mast or carbon mast would come it quite costly (in my part of the world it is easy to obtain a Laser mast but quite difficult to get properly graded alu).
The costs of the hull should be far below 2000 (I estimate that it will use the best of 4 sheets of plywood and some timber).
One final note: the same as you I would never consider the Laser rig for a true 12 ft SOG as it would deserve homemade spars and a nice lug sail (as well as a set of good oars). The boat we are discussing is to be a wet sporty sailing machine and a different rig would be appropriate. Considering this, it may (not should!) make sense using an existing easily commercial available rig, and why not a Laser's.
Best regards,
Joost
-
25th April 2012, 02:07 AM #82SENIOR MEMBER
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
- Location
- Tilburg, the Netherlands
- Age
- 51
- Posts
- 519
-
25th April 2012, 12:23 PM #83
I've no particular candle for Lasers.
My comment was purely in response to DuncanG in post #62.
Looking for a low-cost fleet boat as a step up from the Optimists.
GIS (or similar) looks a simple enough build for a wide range of folks to say
"I could make that". The second-hand rig adds "I could afford to build that".
And still think they have a 'modern' rigged boat that will hold its value.
I think the array of different materials & shapes & accuracy contained in a
sailing rig is fairly daunting for most potential first-time builders.
In this country at least, cost is still a perceived barrier to sailing anything.
Bonus of GIS is a boat that can do a -lot- more than the average club racer,
and as it is already about as light and tweaked as the design can get, there
would be very little advantage to those people with deeper pockets.
North Moreton Bay gets very lumpy in any wind with "East" in its name.
GIS is high-sided enough to look & feel safe, and slippery enough to keep
moving in the rough with a smaller sail.
cheers
Alan J
-
25th April 2012, 09:13 PM #84
The Laser rig is rather old fashioned though ... I am thinking of other alternatives including some very high tech ones achieved in a low tech way.
I'm thinking that if the spars can be home made without being tooooo expensive then a bought sail is probably tolerable.
Assuming the Sexiness of the rig makes it attractive enough to justify the cost of the sail.
Michael
-
26th April 2012, 12:28 AM #85... I am thinking of other alternatives including some very high tech ones achieved in a low tech way.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDave
StorerBoat Builder, Sailor, Enthusiast
Dave's GIS Chronicles | Dave's Lugs'l Chronicles | Dave's StorerBoat Forum Thread
-
26th April 2012, 03:03 AM #86SENIOR MEMBER
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
- Location
- Tilburg, the Netherlands
- Age
- 51
- Posts
- 519
-
26th April 2012, 07:30 AM #87
-
26th April 2012, 08:17 AM #88Senior Member
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
- Location
- Brisbane
- Age
- 42
- Posts
- 102
I must admit, the attractiveness of a 'Laser' (or any mass produced low cost sail) has been reduced since I discovered the availability of Sailrite kits.
Making my PDR sail from a single large polytarp sheet was relatively straight forward. The thing that puts me off making one from Dacron is the need to shape and stitch together the narrower panels. Like anything with boat building, once I do it I will probably wonder what I was worried about, but at this point I wouldn't like to take to a couple of hundred dollars worth of dacron and come out with a crooked sail. Same argument applies for plywood I suppose, and that seems to work out OK, so my argument is probably invalid
I'm seriously considering building Radosław Werszko's 3.8M dinghy, mainly since there don't seem to be any sailing performance reports around, and I'd like to find out what it is like
Speaking of Moreton Bay sailing, there are lots of sandbars and long shallow mudflat areas so a kick-up centreboard seems to be quite important - I'm not sure how easily this could be incorporated into a Storer boat, and what performance implications it might have.
-
26th April 2012, 09:30 AM #89
It is heavy compared to your current boat.
This will make it FEEL very different. If the foils are good it could be quite a good sailor.
With the jib and mainsail the rig will be more expensive and it will take much more time to rig and derig.
MIK
-
27th April 2012, 07:38 AM #90
Mik
I've often wondered if a tall, narrower version of the sprit rig like on the Optimist would work? However, to give it a more modern look, instead of the head being peaked up, keep it square and parallel to the boom. To give more shape to the taller narrower sail, some full length battens? I reckon it could look pretty sexy
To make the sail simple to construct, battens are applied to the sail with sail repair tape. There are simple techniques to do this, but the process eliminates the need to sew pockets in the sail.
Attachment 206504Last edited by woodeneye; 27th April 2012 at 03:48 PM. Reason: added diagram
Similar Threads
-
Hull Finish
By bagman in forum BOAT BUILDING / REPAIRINGReplies: 4Last Post: 23rd April 2011, 11:34 PM -
Extending the hull.
By Exador in forum BOAT BUILDING / REPAIRINGReplies: 10Last Post: 28th November 2010, 06:11 AM -
flipping hull
By dnb5 in forum BOAT BUILDING / REPAIRINGReplies: 21Last Post: 13th December 2009, 08:49 AM -
clinker hull
By Farm boy in forum BOAT BUILDING / REPAIRINGReplies: 15Last Post: 27th February 2007, 08:52 PM -
Silky Oak in hull construction?
By delamaree in forum BOAT RESOURCES / PRODUCT SEARCHReplies: 2Last Post: 16th June 2005, 10:58 PM