Thread: Adhesive, Epoxy and Paint stuff

Never heard of it!

It's an Australasian company whose market seems confined to Australia/New Zealand, so likely users of their products will be from around these parts. (New Zealand is that other country to our right where the name Dennis Connor is has 4-letter word status )

Bruce, there have been discussions on here before about what to look for in epoxies, a fair while ago now unfortunately but if you search on 'high solids' you might be able to unearth them.

From memory, and this isn't a subject I'm real good on, you need an epoxy with no thinners and high solids and this makes it expensive. Unless you can get good, technical assurances, if it's significantly cheaper than the West in the same shop, don't touch it, it won't be the same stuff despite what claims are being made.

For those (such as PAR) who understand these things, the website Bruce linked to above does give a fair bit of information.

Richard

Originally Posted by Daddles

Bruce, there have been discussions on here before about what to look for in epoxies, a fair while ago now unfortunately but if you search on 'high solids' you might be able to unearth them.

From memory, and this isn't a subject I'm real good on, you need an epoxy with no thinners and high solids and this makes it expensive. Unless you can get good, technical assurances, if it's significantly cheaper than the West in the same shop, don't touch it, it won't be the same stuff despite what claims are being made.

For those (such as PAR) who understand these things, the website Bruce linked to above does give a fair bit of information.

Richard

Thanks guys for the caution. I went in today and bought the West System stuff because it comes in smaller quantities compared to the Altex. Seems the Altex stuff is also the beez neez, but mainly used by pros for really BIG yachts, and you have to buy quite large quantities. Altex are a big name in anti-foul. They also have a UV stabilised clear marine epoxy topcoat (no yellow tinge) that I'll consider down the track. Very helpful guys too. They clearly have plenty of experience with boats and surfboards etc and are willing to give out advice. They even offer technical advice over the phone, which is much better than some other off-the-shelf outlets where if you ask a question they just shrug.

By the way, if I don't want brilliant white epoxy fillets from the micro-balloon stuff, what can I use to colour it?

Originally Posted by woodeneye

By the way, if I don't want brilliant white epoxy fillets from the micro-balloon stuff, what can I use to colour it?

Wood flour - the very fine powder you get when you use a sander. You don't want anything coarser than that. I'm a slob and just collect it from my bench sander, sometimes feeding a bit of scrap into the sander for the purpose You don't need much, only a pinch, and it darkens things up really quickly so experiment with joints that won't be seen first.

The other alternative is to use the Bote Cote powders which you can buy precoloured.

When I bother though (that's rare) I just use the West powders and a bit wood flour ... but one should consider that most of my work gets painted

Richard

Do yourselves a big favor and download the users guides from both West System and System Three sites. They will explain the use of fillers, fillets, wood flour, micro balloons, etc.

What I read of the Altex products was solvent laden epoxy with considerably less then the 100% solids content we desire in epoxy. This is fine for concrete garage floor coatings, but not your boat.

For your fillets, use the microballons first, mixing enough to get close to the consistency you're after. Then add very small amounts of wood flour for color and to thicken it just a tad more. As was mentioned above it takes very little wood flour to color the mix. Also, don't worry if your wood flour is a very lightish color; when mixed into epoxy it will darken a good bit.

Micro-balloons have no, zero, nada, zip, etc. strength. It's very rare for me to use a micro-balloon fillet mixture. Balloons are for fairing surfaces smooth only. Fillets, by their nature do two primary tasks. The most common is joint reinforcement and balloons have no place within a fillet mixture like this. This is a structural fillet. The other use for a fillet is as a fairing piece, such as the intersection of a fin keel to the hull bottom (for example). This transition area is often radiused to ease fabric application or smooth water flow or ease area cleaning. This would be a cosmetic fillet and balloons would be used, but if fabric covered, I'd prefer to employ Q-cells or other light weight filler materials that can tolerate some compression or impact. Since the vast majority of fillets are structural in nature it's best to use materials within it that can handle the tasks you'll ask of it.

Again, down load the user guides or log onto Michael Storer's site and have a look at epoxy application methods, techniques, etc. It's important you use the stuff that will provide you a reasonable path to success.

Within WEST system you use the micro FIBRE blend for filleting and gluing and I think they have a silica product too.

Don't use Q-cels (white) or microballoons (which are plastic and a browney colour) for filleting and gluing.

If you have used them for either of those already then get back to us and we can work out a strategy that will get round the problem.

The plans are also clear that you don't want to use Q-cels or microballoons for fillets and gluing.

With the GIS fillets are only cosmetic and not really needed for strength and those are OK for using microballoons or Q-cels.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Within WEST system you use the micro FIBRE blend for filleting and gluing and I think they have a silica product too.

I was reading the packets the other day. Their 403 powder is a mix of colloidal silica and fibrous cotton. Their 411 is microballoons. Both a shocking white.

Essentially, all my gluing is with the 403.
Structural fillets will get a bit of 411 to smooth out the mix a bit.
We used a 50/50 mix at lot at TAFE which makes a lovely fillet - I don't go much beyond that with any of my work.
I tried a fairing paste of 411 once, might do so again on the LBD (on no, I'm contemplating SANDING )

Richard

Thanks everyone, some good advice here. For the moment, my only epoxy work is fairing and coating the foils, so nothing structural. (Used Vise PU for the laminations). I'll make sure I get the right stuff for the hull.

I just checked and I do indeed have the 403 powder for glueing and filleting. Just have to experiment a bit with some wood flour/coffee grounds for colour.

Messing around with the West System epoxy today and I made 3 trial fillets. adding 50:50 403 powder and triple sifted unbleached wheat flour gives a nice smooth pine-coloured tone to the fillets. Easy to replicate so as to maintain consistency.

If a dark colour is required, the used, dried coffee grounds work a treat too.

I bought the 5:1 measuring pumps. Not cheap at $40 for the pair, but I think well worth the money to save the hassle of using measuring cups.

I was hoping to use International Brightside paint for my GIS. I know Mick is a fan of the stuff and gives it a good rap. I'm just concerned that International don't recommend it for below the waterline, or is it OK for boats that will be dry-sailed? No mention of this anywhere that I've been able to find.

Yes. Underwater use presumes the boat stays in the water. Occasional immersion is fine for Brightside and Perfection.

I used Perfection for my Goat but I got some Brightside on sale and will be using it on my Simmons.