Thread: Balance lug draft

Hi Brad,

I think it depends how the sailmaker chooses to do it/what you ask for. Regarding sails for the Goat Island Skiff for example, I believe the standard sail from Duckworks is cut with only edge round, sails such as this one from McNamara Sails in the UK have a lot of the shape from broadseaming.

This is an example of the Duckworks Sail (this one set loose footed).

There would definitely be a price difference between what I think is the budget end Duckworks Sail, and going to a top racing sailmaker and asking them to make the best sail they can.

Maybe a bit of performance difference, but probably only in the last ? percent if you get the cheaper sail set up right - the cheaper sail set just right would beat the high end sail set a little wrongly.

Christophe (Callsign222, look at his thread and blog) had a lot of trouble getting his Duckworks sail working initially, but from the picture above has it sorted nicely now.

It would be nice to confirm (or otherwise) all this with some two boat testing - the opportunity exists in the Netherlands, Joost with a Duckworks sail and Watermaat with a McNamara Sail are not too far apart, but I don't think it has happened yet.

If you are up for the learning curve, there seems to be sailmaking software available for free (SailCut4?) that lets you design sails yourself with edge round only or fully broad seamed, contact Keyhavenpotter if you are interested as he has played with this and made a dacron sail himself which I think turned out well.


All the best,

Ian

Ian,

Thanks for the reply.

I really like the way the McNamara sail looks but I don't think I could justify the cost of a high end sail for a PD Racer. I was hoping the Duckworks sail was more than flat with a curved head but it doesn't appear to have any more camber than the polytarp sail I'm using now.

The polysail may be all I need, I'll know more after the Sail Oklahoma messabout this weekend.

I'm not interested in learning the art of sail making right now. I'd rather spend that time sailing or building boats.

Brad

Originally Posted by BradLH

I'm not interested in learning the art of sail making right now.

Are you sure? "Draft..." "cut and sewn..." "head curvature..." It sounds like you've already moved beyond "ungh... make boat go."

I'm interested in MIK's response to your question myself (since I don't currently own a set of MIK's lug plans). Knowing the designer's intent gives you the tools to discuss the construction with whoever you go to for the sail. And if you are armed with even more sailmaking knowledge, you can better judge their (inevitable) push-backs/trade-offs/compromises.

I've been reading (on-and-off) "The Sailmaker's Apprentice" by Emiliano Marino and I think it has been a great addition to what I've learned here and elsewhere. It's been entertaining and informative and has almost convinced me that making a sail like the Balance Lug is within my limited capabilities.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Sailmakers-Apprentice-Emiliano-Marino/dp/0071376429/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1286543209&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: Sailmaker's Apprentice (9780071376426): Emiliano Marino: Books[/ame]

Howdy,

The best way for the sail is for there to be both edge curve on the edges that set along spars and broadseaming in the body of the sail.

Almost all sailmakers will use both. There are a couple of exceptions such as the original Laser sail - which laid on a loft floor has very few wrinkles - showing a minimum of broadseaming

For a nice boat like the Goat or Beth, a properly made sail is a good investment. However the OzRacer/PDRacer is a special case as the flat sail with edge shaping only is very suitable to build at home - saving about $500 on the cost of this basic boat - a very useful cost equation.

As far as the Duckworks sail - I've been working with the sailmaker to do it a bit differently. The sail works OK set loose footed, but for those who want a contained foot - it didn't really set well. This has been rectified at this point with the sail modified to set OK with or without a laced foot.

The other aspect is that we also have been discussing the lessons of the MacNamara sail - which I think it the best sail available for the GIS - he has made a sail, been out for a sail in the boat (you can see his comments here Goat Island Skiff (GIS) - A real sailing boat - Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans )

While Duckworks and I don't want to go the way of having battens - no advantage being proven at this point - we have decided to work a bit more towards that shape in terms of draft up high - a little being added at this point to their design and Chuck and I aiming to get feedback from customers to make sure it is not going too far ... a few steps of gradual improvement is better than going too far and making a big mistake.

I wouldn't necessarily think of these two sailmakers either. Any sailmaker that builds lots of sails for racing boats but knows something about traditional sails will do a good job. A traditional sailmaker may not be the best choice as they tend to include details that have not withstood the test of time - such as roping sail edges (some even recommend the leach) but a trad sailmaker with an appreciation of modern racing sails would be fine too.

Best wishes
Michael

I've just discovered that the current Paper Tiger international champion, Ian Markovitch, practically lives on my doorstep (45mins away), and he's a sailmaker! Here he is winning in Napier, NZ earlier this year with his own sail.

From the front, you can see the power in this sail all the way up the mast...
Attachment 149723

Markovitch is a nice guy - he was at Gosford for years. By all accounts he is a nice chap too.

He has specialised in multi sails, but does a lot of other stuff too.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Howdy,

For a nice boat like the Goat or Beth, a properly made sail is a good investment.

Best wishes
Michael

Well, I think my OZ is a nice boat and most everyone who sees it thinks it's a nice boat also

haha - I didn't quite mean it like that! The Oz Racer/OZPDR is a very nice boat too - but it is of a type that responds very well to economising.

With the Goat or Beth you would lose quite a bit of performance - with the Goat the polytarp would stretch badly (size of sail and two people hiking out).

Beth sails on the lift/drag curve a bit more than most boats - you don't have a lot of power from leaning out - so going upwind depends on reasonable efficiency keeping the drag down. I would be worried about sail distortion reducing the effectiveness of here limited power.

With the PDR you have a huge amount of power because of the boat stability - and it is not a shape that will point really high because of relative bluntness - so the cheaper sailcloth works OK.

The PDR is sortof a 1947 VW beetle compared to Beth's Lotus 7 and the GIS's ... hmmm .... what would the GIS be?

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

The PDR is sortof a 1947 VW beetle compared to Beth's Lotus 7 and the GIS's ... hmmm .... what would the GIS be?

BMW 3-series coupe? It is "traditional" because it is front engine, rear drive, normally aspirated, manual shift. It is designed for two, can easily carry up to four, and does well solo in the right hands. It can run with some pretty serious machinery when asked to, but is perfectly comfortable packing a picnic and enjoying the journey. It's no Porsche or Ferrari, but let's face it... is that what we really need? In the hands of a pilot like Christophe it will do things none of us think should be done , but we marvel at someone else doing it . And oh yeah, its lines are sweeeeet.

Maybe one of the early series BMWs as a nod to the traditional ... but this is a coupe ... we need something with more back seat room to relate to the goat.



MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Markovitch is a nice guy - he was at Gosford for years. By all accounts he is a nice chap too.

He has specialised in multi sails, but does a lot of other stuff too.

MIK

Hi MIK

My brother said he was very giving of information...kept nothing to himself if asked, and even conducted boatside mini "seminars" on how to rig a PT. Sounds like someone else we know

Yes, he still lives on the Central Coast and runs his Redhead Sails business from there.

I just finished going through 127-post, four-plus year epic thread at Woodenboat titled Sail Design wherein Keyhavenpotter and Boatmik both pick the brains of Todd Bradshaw. Really great discussion and lots of good Lug advice.

Man, this internet thing is pretty spiffy...

It CAN be spiffy when you get the right people. Todd and Keyhavenpotterer are very useful ones to know about.

MIK