Thread: Drop in rudder for Quick Canoe?

It takes three sheets of ply with very little waste.
MIK does have an article on a cassette type rudder on his website, plus I believe that if you purchase the 'Drop in Sail Rig' plans, there is plans in there about a daggerboard that pivots on the mount for the sail rig, and a rudder system as well. If you step right up and purchase the outrigger plans, the drop in sail rig plans come with it for no extra charge. All of these plans come in a PDF format, so once you purchase them, you can print them out on
your own computer and not have to wait for delivery.
A quick canoe trimaran would be a really stable sailing platform, especially for beginners because they would not have to worry about dumping the boat when learning.


Rick Landreville
Rosedale B.C. Canada.

Originally Posted by engblom

Today I came back from a camp where almost all canoes were broken. After looking at the Quick Canoe, I came to think it would be nice to have such canoes for this yearly arranged camp. The canoes gets very rough handling between the camps by random people renting the place. This makes Quick Canoe a suitable alternative as they look very robust.

I am still dreaming about having time to build a Goat Island Skiff for myself, but right now I am a bit curious about the Quick Canoe and the Drop in Rig. The biggest question right now for me is: Where is the rudder? I mean, you can not really sail without a rudder and from the pictures, it looks like there is no rudder!

(A hint for Boatmik: It would be nice with a complete plan of the Quick Canoe with center board, rudder and fittings for a mast to make a quick and cheap alternative to Beth. A bit like what the "PD-Racer" is for the "normal" sailing boats.)

EDIT: Could someone give a pretty accurate size of the area of all plywood parts? I would want to calculate the weight difference by picking different plywoods.

Howdy ...

The idea is that the pivoting of the leeboard allows you to balance the sail.

Then you can steer in light to moderate winds with a paddle. Note the pin (probably removable) that they use to brace the paddle on.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ0KwXBUEjY]Dave's New Punt - YouTube[/ame]

But if you want the rudder design I can give you the one from the OzRacer.

MIK

While reading the article, The standard Storer boat plans “kick back” dagger rudder.

The photo of Gary Dierking's outrigger is using a quarter rudder.



Compared to a stern mounted rudder.

What advantages/disadvantages does this have?

I consider to make a pivoting (kicking up) ruddder, for my BETH "Yuanfen" canoe.

Too often have hooks on the ground - especially at the start, and approaching the shore if there is wave and surf. This is a small problem if the the ground is sandy, but the bigger they are the rocks and stones. I want to be able to raise the rudder still in deep water and approach to shore with paddle and no hooking longer rudder on the ground. BETH is there for a little complicated add a halyard to raise the rudder, but it can be done.

There is hardly possible to do the rudder, similar as in PDR, or as in GIS, because it is not possible to reach there hand to control the draft of the rudder.

For now, I do not go in the long cruising trip (and I'm too lazy to alteration) so my rudder is what it is...

Yes ... it is one place where a swinging rudder is superior to the one I normally use.

My experience with swinging blades is that the only reliable way to keep them down is using rope - good non stretch rope like used for the halyards and lead it to a cheap plastic cleat. That way if you ever hit it really hard the cleat will break.

But weight doesn't work and shockcord/bungee doesn't work reliably enough for me to advise using. Or I should say ... weight is just crazy!

And bungee doesn't seem to work in practice unless the boat is really slow.

MIK

This with swinging rudders brings up one question I have many times been wondering about: How easy is it to injure a GIS by hitting a stone with the center board and the rudder? There are really many stones a bit under the surface there where I am going to sail.

You need to speak to Christophe who sails stony water in New Hampshire.

The rudder just pushes back and then pops down again after going over the stone or log. If the boat stops too much it's best to get out and walk it over. But if the rudder is dragging hard enough to slow the boat ... it is pretty shallow.

The boat sails well upwind even with the board half up as long as you keep the speed up and don't pull the sail on excessively hard. That's about 18" or 500mm of water below the keel.

You will hit the bottom with the centreboard sometimes ... in South Australia where I sailed BETH the most there are limestone "reefs" across the river and they are in very unexpected places. It's noisy and the boat does stop. But the damage is limited to the trailing edge of the centreboard. The case is virtually bulletproof.

Also the centreboard with timber covered with glass is very good at resisting serious damage. Eventually the edge can become quite damaged. With BETH it took a few years. I just planed off the back edge, glued a new bit on, planed it down and reglassed that section.

There have been requests about a swinging centreboard, but unfortunately the case would take up the main part of the working cockpit. if someone wants to try I'll help but I am not convinced the result will be all good.

I hope this is reassuring in some ways. I do try to sail my boats slower and get the centreboard up when I am in doubt. But with lots of high speed crashes into limestone reefs ... I know the damage is usually negligible despite the shock when it happens.

I think there is a bigger risk of damage leaving the board in the case while it is on the beach or when sailing in to the beach ... best to pull it out completely for the last little bit. After all ... the water is only 18" deep.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

speak to Christophe

...aka callsign222 on this forum. Another veteran centerboard fixer is BobWes (I think). If I recall correctly, one or both of them had some hull damage as well due to the centerboard's hardwood trailing edge cutting into the aft edge of the slot.

But very minor repair to the back of the case .. the timber gets indented a little. And I mean a little ... it was always surprising to me sailing in South Australia ... we don't have limestone reefs in Sydney ... you almost never hit anything.

But on South Oz lakes and rivers it is almost routine. First time it happened It was so dramatic I expected big damage ... but board and case handle it quite well.

Rudder never has any problem

I've been asked about swinging centreboards ... but looking at the space in the Goat I don't think they will work. Just not enough space.

And remember the Goat was meant to be the simplest possible boat with the best possible performance. The daggerboard fits the original intention the best but requires some (small - I think) compromise.

MIK

One question about plywood. Is 6 mm pine plywood (with 5 plies) a bad choice?

I have found out that Finnish pine is having a density of 370 – 550 kg/m3. Gaboon is having about 430 kg/m3.The weight is thus about the same.

I am asking because I found out today while I tried to find gaboon plywood that I can get pine plywood pretty close to where I am living (1h away). It is very high quality pine plywood and the price is not far from what gaboon is costing, so I am not winning much.

The biggest reasons why I would prefer pine are: 1. It is not too far away. 2. It is not imported wood. I prefer to support own country and no nature resources has been used to ship it around the globe.

Still I do not want to do bad compromises....

Five ply is ideal Engblom!

The quick canoe is meant to be an economical boat so a pine ply is appropriate.

I would be a little surprised if pine matches gaboon weights ... but the cheaper ply matches the simplified shape much better.

Where are you in Finland?

Best wishes
Michael

I am in the archipelago near to Turku (about as south-west you get in Finland). Would pine also be fine for a GIS?

Terve ( Hi )
I write this in finnish !

Eli terve

Tein Quick kanootin koivuvanerista. Tein koemielessä pohjan 6mm vanerista ja sivut
4 mm vanerista. Tuli pirun kevyt ja sivut kestää hyvin.

En käyttäisi havuvaria, koska se on niin huokosta. Ennen ostin aina suomalaista vaneria mutta nykyään se on jo vaikeaa löytää, joten osta ihan surutta ulkomaista kunhan se on liimattu fenoli liimalla ( ruskeat viirut vanerissa ) ja hyvin nekin on kestänyt ja on paljon halvempia - jos teet jotain monimutkasempaa venettä niin kannattanee ostaa suomalaista? mutta ihan tavallinen koivuvaneri on tarpeeksi hyvää ja mukavampaa työstää kuin havu.

Ulkopintaan kun imeyttää vähän epoksia niin kestää vielä paremmin .

Perttu

Hi Perttu,
I write in English as this discussion might still be interesting for somebody else too.

I did a fast calculation of the weight. If I would use 4 mm birch for the sides and 6 mm for the bottom, it would add a bit less than 5 kg to the whole quick canoe compared to everything made with 6 mm gaboon.

Standard 4 mm birch plywood is having 3 plies, did the one you used have more?

Also, as I am still seriously dreaming about one time having a chance to build a GIS, I am wondering what alternative plywoods could be used there.

Somebody made a whole rowing boat out of just 4 mm birch, and even used a big engine on it. I have been seeing many projects using birch, as it is very strong... the bad side is the weight.