Thread: Drop-in Sail for Quick Canoe

I'm thinking through making the rudder box, with reference to the Oz-Racer, GIS and BETH plans, and any photos I can find of rudders on canoe sterns.

A naive copy of the Oz-R and GIS rudder boxes looks way to high on the QC: it leaves only 450-500 mm of a 900 rudder foil in the water. So I'm thinking of extending the 24mm (21mm really, because my foil ended up thinner ) spacer upwards and installing a "cross-tree" on it, above the deck height. The cross-tree will fix to the rudder with a plywood bracket for rigidity, the rudder box will look better mounted further down, and there'll be 600mm+ of rudder in the water.

There will necessarily be a rudder-extension to control it from sitting either on the seat or up on the gunwale - in the attached photo the seat is a little forward of the saw-horse.

Does that seem sensible?

Originally Posted by MichaelB

I'm thinking through making the rudder box, with reference to the Oz-Racer, GIS and BETH plans, and any photos I can find of rudders on canoe sterns.

BETH has a not kicking-up rudder like this:



I can see some disadvantages of this solution - like this (some difficulties in singlehanded launching and beaching - rudder touches on the ground):


...but it is a easy, simple and cheap solution, and really good in sailing - no needs any ropes, expanders and adjustments.

I don't like swinging rudders much at all but they make sense for canoe sterns. However think how much water you are sailing in when it touches.

The way I handle through type of launch is just lift the seen in. Then lift the bow in. Not too bad single handed.

Originally Posted by paul.helbert

It is looking good. What is the area of your sail?

Thx; the area is 2,01 sqm - it is Michael's design.
Bests
Csaba - Mezix

Originally Posted by Boatmik

I don't like swinging rudders much at all but they make sense for canoe sterns. However think how much water you are sailing in when it touches.

The way I handle through type of launch is just lift the seen in. Then lift the bow in. Not too bad single handed.

If this is a good place for discuss of swinging/pivoting/kicking-up rudders for sailing canoes:

Tell to the truth - in my area almost all (except only few ones) rudders swinging are. Almost all touring kayaks/canoes which have rudders have swinging ones.
What are you thinking - why???

Swinging rudder is better in most utilitarian conditions:
Not interferes of underwater obstacles, which a lot of our inland waters.
Hitting the rudder of the boat during the maneuver whatever may threaten serious damage to the stern and rudder. Therefore, it is good to be able to raise the rudder during the approach to an unknown shore, for eg.

However, the BETH's rudder extends about 20 cm, which does not interfere in many waters, but the principle is simple: if something can hook up and break off, it will hooked up and breaks off - because there are plenty of opportunities.

Howdy,
A good place to say some things about rudders

I wouldn't recommend the Beth type rudder for canoes with a single sail or a very traditionally shaped sailing canoe. You do a lot of steering assistance with the sails. Ease main to point up for a tack or from on for a bearaway. With rudder and sails together you can spin as gracefully as Pavlova. I mean the dancer, not the dessert!

A traditional canoe shape would probably have too much directional stability for the little rudder to overcome.

For Beth the depth of the hull rocker plus any tiny amount of centreboard is so much deeper that it is very unlikely to hit. And we have seen with Bruce's big crash and mine too, how strong these structures are.

The dagger rudder and shock cord (bungee) loaded disservice answers all the same problems mentioned by Robert and does it so much better there is no real comparison.

However the swinging rudders have one distinct advantage. When it is impossible or difficult to get to the back of the boat, you can pull on the rope!

Howdy,
A good place to say some things about rudders

I wouldn't recommend the Beth type rudder for canoes with a single sail or a very traditionally shaped sailing canoe. You do a lot of steering assistance with the sails. Ease main to point up for a tack or from on for a bearaway. With rudder and sails together you can spin as gracefully as Pavlova. I mean the dancer, not the dessert!

A traditional canoe shape would probably have too much directional stability for the little rudder to overcome.

For Beth the depth of the hull rocker plus any tiny amount of centreboard is so much deeper that it is very unlikely to hit. And we have seen with Bruce's big crash and mine too, how strong these structures are.

The dagger rudder and shock cord (bungee) loaded disservice answers all the same problems mentioned by Robert and does it so much better there is no real comparison.

However the swinging rudders have one distinct advantage. When it is impossible or difficult to get to the back of the boat, you can pull on the rope!

I guess it's important that the rudder be vertical if at all possible?

Originally Posted by Boatmik

I wouldn't recommend the Beth type rudder for canoes with a single sail or a very traditionally shaped sailing canoe. You do a lot of steering assistance with the sails. Ease main to point up for a tack or from on for a bearaway. With rudder and sails together you can spin as gracefully as Pavlova. I mean the dancer, not the dessert!

A traditional canoe shape would probably have too much directional stability for the little rudder to overcome.

For Beth the depth of the hull rocker plus any tiny amount of centreboard is so much deeper that it is very unlikely to hit. And we have seen with Bruce's big crash and mine too, how strong these structures are.

The dagger rudder and shock cord (bungee) loaded disservice answers all the same problems mentioned by Robert and does it so much better there is no real comparison.

However the swinging rudders have one distinct advantage. When it is impossible or difficult to get to the back of the boat, you can pull on the rope!

By my over 40 seasons of practice on our inland waters :

See there:


This is my Micro Class prototype converted by me for recreational daysailing and cruising. I'm standing for attention on daggerboard and my brother at helm. Swinging rudder is half swinged up because a ground is really close. Yes! This is a "good" moment for break a rudder and/or tiller if wind stronger a bit, but there was a light air and we were able to sail out of our "marina". Originally this racing prototype had the same rudder not swinging and it was a bit over 1 m of Draft - not able for sailing on most (almost all) of our inland waters (only for racing on "olimpic triangle") than I've converted it.

Look there:

Me and my daughter on tiny beach catamaran on Zatoka Pucka (Gulf of Puck - protected part of Gulf of Gdansk) in Puck. Zatoka Pucka is a really shallow - many areas have less of 1 m with many fishing nets and ropes and there is really difficult to use not swinging rudders for beach cruising and small boats sailing. And remebmer - don't try to sail with half swinged rudders if wind stronger than Force 1! Rudders can be broken really quick! They needs to be vertical!

look there:

I'm trying to sail (trying to go further in the direction of deep water) with half swinged up rudders - it's very danger for rudders! They needs to be vertical at work!

look there:

My daughter and me preparing for another daysailing on another tiny catamaran and the previous one resting on the shore that she was broken... (mounting rudders and other parts due the winds in our daysailings Force 5 and more).

About rudder for BETH and for other sailing canoes and tiny boats.
I can see disadvantages of not swinging (fixed) rudder in few conditions:
- fixed rudder captures and retains floating seaweed and floating ropes - this requires the intervention of boat hooks or oar (on Beth it can be difficult because you have to hiking and bypass the mizzen mast at once) - as MIK said better if "you can pull on the rope!",
- can be very inconvenient to use on the rivers and the tide - with the drift the underwater obstacles and shallows (in that moments any projection below the bottom is needed!),
- singlehanded launching and beaching can be uncomfortable and in some conditions can be danger for rudder and mount - swingin centreboard/leebord and swinging rudder helps to do of it as like as shown there:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKbUBVQmang"]YouTube - Bolger Jinni Coming in[/ame]

sorry, edited this by deleting my post... I'm too tired and cranky to be "let out in public"

apologies, I have valid points and will input them when I am not so bad tempered.

MIK, Paul (anyone!),

How much curvature did you build into the standard/small sail on the drop-in rig? I'm guessing none on leech and luff, and max about 25-30mm on foot and head, about 25-30% back from the luff. Close?

I will have a look back at home.

MIK

Nearly there. Lots of sanding outstanding though.

Looking very nice. Good job. Can you upload a few close-up photos? - I am really curious about the details.

Here the winter came back again - so the building is suspended because I do not have a workshop, I am building outside.