Thread: GIS Build in Queenstown New Zealand

Very much appreciate all the work and the continued feedback Ian.

We will all get something out of it.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

It will go the nicest if you spend more time sitting close to your wife in the middle of the boat!

Yes, I agree, that's why I made the middle seat twice as wide as the plan specifies. In the picture where I am sitting on the rear tank, I'd just pushed the rudder down as we got underway and was moving forward when someone called out to turn around for a picture.

I trust you approve of the seating arrangement in this picture:
(although not the painter trailing in the water, I'll have to photoshop that out...

Attachment 194530

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Hi Ian,

So exciting to have a Goat in NZ! It really has a lot on NZ heritage. If John Spencer had not been ... then my sailing life would have been very different and the boats I design would be different too
http://www.firebug.co.nz/images/acro...s_obituary.pdf

Yes, the difference in approach/lightweight boats between the Northern and Southern Hemispheres goes quite a way back. When Shackleton and co were sorting out the James Caird on the beach for the trip to South Georgia, he had a big argument with the skipper, Frank Worsley (from Akaroa, NZ) about how much stone ballast to add. Shackleton wanted to add as much as possible to minimise the chance of capsizing, Worsley was all for as little as possible to speed the trip and let the boat rise over the waves. Shackleton won the argument at the time as he was the boss, but admitted after the journey that Worsey was right and they would have been better off traveling faster and lighter.

Ian

Good one Ian!

Wasn't aware of the Shackleton stuff. Very cool.

I will happily admit that a lot of the changes were with plywood boat design from New Zealand. The Cherub and NS14 (derived from the NZ Javelin) were important here. As well as the local Gwen 12 and the Lightweight (plywoodised) sharpie.

Michael

A couple of pictures of some fibreglass oar shafts I got made up.
Attachment 196046

Attachment 196047

Attachment 196048

Ferrules in the middle so I can take them apart and keep them out of the way down the front of the boat.

I'll drill a hole through shaft and ferrule, then the spring loaded button pops through from the inside to keep them together.

Plan A is to put curved blades from 4mm ply on the ends and turn some wooden handles, Plan B is to buy some blades similar to these below and just plug them in, I'll see which way I go about it when I get around to putting them together this winter.



Shafts are 2300 mm long, but with handles on one end and blades on the other the overall length will end up about 2750 mm or 9 ft. Weight is just 800 g apiece with the ferrules in place so oars should end up very light.

Ian

Thanks Ian,

got it !

Viktor

Ian

NIIIIICE!

MIK

Wow, very nice, and super light too no doubt.

It won't be too long before we have a carbon topmast for the Laser. All the development and testing's been done and I believe it is now a matter for the builders to accept. Probably will be some time after the Olympics I would think. One of the guys at our club has one of the trial masts, but I haven't yet had a go with it yet.

Yes, 800 g per shaft including the ferrule. Price was good - shafts were NZ$43.38 apiece plus NZ$5.00 for each ferrule. I don't think the carbon oar shafts are much lighter - just a lot stiffer (both engineering and price wise)

By the way, does anyone have a typical weight or a set of wooden oars (made according to Mik's plans or similar?

These oar shafts would also make good yards and booms for a boat slightly smaller than a GIS.

Ian

Hi Bruce

a carbon topmast on the Laser??? And what cost?

Well that will add .012 knots! And Performance sailcraft will be behind it because it makes all the topmasts in the existing fleet redundant so everyone has to buy a new one.

What effect will it have on older fleets in Sri Lanka or Turkey? Or University sailing club fleets? As soon as anyone gets the carbon topmast in their fleets then it will be disheartening for the other sailors so they will be forced to change over too.

Changing a whole class for a non material advantage is bizarre. People need to think about the original purpose and intent of the class and make a rational decision to retain the strengths of the class.

The NS14 had a rule that no technology improvement could increase the cost of any component by more than 20%.

So they started using carbon for the part of the mast above the stays. Only 20%.

Then someone made it a bit longer ... Only 20%.

Then they passed that the whole mast could be carbon ... only 20%.

It is obvious what the finishing point for this change is!

For 0.12knots in some conditions? And if it gives more performance then that is more reason to not accept it. And the boat still is a slow singlehander ... it makes no material difference to anything other than give some people in the fleet an advantage.

A huge problem for the manufacturers is that there are so many boats eixisting already out there that will make the company no money. So something like this that means those non income producing boats can contribute to revenue.

Also in the past people have been able to buypass the crazy expense of the Performance Sailcraft topmasts and other aluminium spars by buying extrusions from Aluminium companies for about 1/3 to 1/5 the cost. This will no longer be available as an alternative.

The last point will be that it is so much in the interest for Performance Sailcraft to make this change that they will hold down the price of the carbon spars, and compare with their already hugely inflated cost for the aluminium spars and say the difference is not bad. But we already know their pricing policy for the aluminium spars! So are they suddenly going to be "cut price" and reasonable when the rules say the spars have to be carbon.

Laser sailors and anyone with an interest in the success of the laser should fight this to the last man, er person!!

Sorry ... you know me Bruce ... this is one topic that drives me wild!!!

On a personal note ... I'm following your exploits getting ready for the Laser Masters and continue to be excited about the whole thing .... you mentioned that I should get a "fixer-upper" Laser and think about doing it myself. I was hugely tempted. But with the requirement to buy a carbon topmast ... why would I? At the moment there is a simple and cheap way into the class ... this move creates an obvious hurdle for me and a few thousand others around the world. I just won't consider it now that I know this is on the horizon.

Michael Storer

I think the cost of carbon masts is now comparable with aluminum masts. There is a thread on the NS14 forum (here) which mentions that the last of the existing aluminium wing extrusions have run out. Apparently flightspar did a big run a decade or so ago at their as the volume kept the costs down. If you try and buy an aluminium section from a spar maker now it will be a similar cost as a carbon section, and hence there is no interest in doing a further run with aluminium.

Also an interesting note about the Laser Masters Worlds. Mark Bethwaite is on the board of the company I work for, and apparently he has won the title a few times.

Hi Mik, I wondered if that would fire you up It's not really that bad.

Great care has been taken that the new carbon topmast performs EXACTLY like the alu one. If it didn't, then there's no way it would be accepted as the last thing that ILCA and its members would want is to create any redundancy. As it stands, there is still a chance that the thing won't be approved, which will be a great pity, for the following reasons:

The carbon one has the same dimensions and weighs the same as the alu one and has identical bend characteristics. The only difference is that it won't break or bend permanently. As you might imagine with a carbon tube of that size, if you are at the point that it performs the same, the thing is over-engineered in terms of strength. It must perform the same, or it won't eventuate.

The idea is to save us all money because most of us who sail consistently in strong breezes would go through at least 2 top masts a season. It is not unheard of for the Perth guys to go through 3-5 topmasts a year. The point of the carbon topmast is to prevent all these replacements. They are $256 a pop. Sure, the carbon tube will be more expensive than the alu one, but much cheaper in the long run, and that run won't be long at all. Not only that, but at a Laser regatta of 200 boats, you probably need to have 20 replacement topmasts on hand. Making sure that these replacements are delivered all over the world is a royal PITA for the builders.

Sailors would likely see a cost benefit from the carbon topmast in the first year. I don't believe that there is any intention of stopping production of the alu version, so the carbon will be just be an option. The casual laser sailor just won't need the carbon mast.

By the way, I have just ordered a new alu top section ($256) as well as a new bottom section ($366) as the bottom has a slight bend that will be dismissed at a Club or State level, but not at a Worlds. I just don't want any run-ins with Measurers!

I don't have to tell you that the Laser is indeed a quirky boat. It's far from perfect, but that is just part of what a laser sailor accepts. After all, it all started out as the TGIF, or Weekender. Kirby just hit the jackpot at the right time. It's the same for us all.

Here are some links for anyone interested in the Laser carbon topmast:

Sail-World.com : Perth 2011 Lasers

CST Laser class carbon fibre mast tip testing:
Attachment 196231

Laser history here, which explains the original name TGIF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_(dinghy)

hehe ... you are a shrewd study of character Bruce!

$366 was the same price we built each of the first two OZ PDRacers for. Complete boat.

Also the Aluminium one in 6061 is probably only worth about $50 or thereabouts - I might be out of date

But why are they breaking ... it is because of the higher vang loads because of the increased mechanical advantage of the vang compared to the original.

Every step creates problems with other aspects of what was a very neat concept at the beginning.

My bet is that the more robust top will produce problems for the mast or boom or sail, just as changing the vang caused problem for the topmast.

The Laser gained its massive popularity in spite of its shortcomings. There is a good lesson there for both manufacturers and designers

Best wishes
Michael.

Hi Mik

There is no doubting the real value of the alu tube, likely it is indeed around $50. The spar prices I quoted include the fittings, already attached. Unfortunately, the masts are licensed items, so we have to use them in competition as otherwise our boats won't be class legal. Like it or not, we have to use licensed gear, or our boats are not Lasers.

I tend to agree that the super-vanging has contributed to the problems. However, these mast issues seem go back to a time well before the introduction of the "turbo" 15:1 vang system. I must say that my personal experience is that the 15:1 vang is very powerful and there is no way I'd pull on anywhere near the tension if I was using the original 4:1 system! To be competitive though, you need to haul on massive vang tension in a breeze above 15 knots. The tension required is so that when sheeted "block to block", you can ease the boom out to spill power without the boom going up in the air. If the boom goes up when you ease the sheet, you are straightening the mast and powering up the sail. This is the opposite of what you want. At Salamander, we are blessed with strong breezes all summer, so hauling on the vang will eventually bend the top mast.

It is encouraging that the class has survived a number of changes in the past, for example, the change in sail makers from Elvstrom solely to North and Hyde; the allowance of carbon tillers/extensions and the turbo vang/Cunningham. The carbon tiller was allowed in order to overcome the problems with the traveller, which rides over the tiller. You need to have a tiller that is is low and stiff enough to allow proper tension in the traveler, otherwise the traveler block won't sit at the corner and the sheeting angle is too close. Not only that, but the original alu one bends and knocks on the traveler cleat. Very annoying and the cause of many a capsize. The carbon mast is what the membership wants in order to keep costs down, so I think it has a good chance of success. The structure of the Laser empire is such that there are a lot of slices in the Laser pie, so that won't change anytime soon. These slices include builders (and the builders include the spar makers, sail makers, fitting suppliers, hull builders) and the retail network's official suppliers. However, the Laser still beats most one design classes hands down for low cost of ownership. Just look at the Finn. $20,000 will only get you a decent second hand one! A brand new Laser with all the bells and whistles, including a beach dolly and the best in control lines is under $10K. The great thing is that a good 10y/o boat will cost around $2k or less, and they are still competitive at major regattas. The second hand Laser market is very strong and new and used fittings are easily procured for not much money, so it's still a nice and cheap way to go racing in decent fleets.

Ian, my apologies for hijacking your thread, with this somewhat off-topic conversation! I hope you don't mind?

Originally Posted by woodeneye

The carbon mast is what the membership wants in order to keep costs down, so I think it has a good chance of success....

Ian, my apologies for hijacking your thread, with this somewhat off-topic conversation! I hope you don't mind?

No problem!

I'm curious, you say these mast tips are from carbon, but that they're the same outside diameter, stiffness and weight as the original alu ones. I'm guessing/rough calculating that they is only about 30% carbon, 70% glass in the composite if the above is true. Full carbon at the same weight and OD as the alu would be much stiffer, match stiffness and the carbon would be much lighter.

Match the stiffness and weight of the alu in 30% carbon, 70% glass and you are correct, they will be much stronger than the alu section, be interesting if the bottom half of the mast then starts to give problems as Mik says.

Ian

Ian