Thread: GIS handling characteristics

Hello MIK,

What you describe is exactly how I handle things: crew is allways on the midseat shifting weight when needed. Except in very strong winds when the crew needs to be on the gunwale as well.

The helmsman is either on the cockpit sole or on the gunwales just after the midseat. I must say that I sail standing up a lot as well downwind like you do. Sailing solo doesn't change much as the crew is sitting right in the middle of the boat.

In very strong winds and especially when the waves are getting bigger, the helsman moves back a bit on reaches and downwind. In very large waves when sailing downwind and overtaking waves, it pays off to move back to the aft seat (I rigged my traveller so that there is a bit of space on the aft deck). Upwind, the helmsman stays really close to the midseat in all conditions.

Yes, we only sailed our GIS five times before participating in the raid in Scotland. We had no previous practice with the GIS in the conditions we encountered on some of the lochs (rather large waves and F5 winds with strong gusts). It became very obvious in those conditions however that some weight in the back of the boat was required to prevent the nose digging in too much. The nose will still dig in the waves you are overtaking but in a very mannered fashion and the boat is still very controllable.

Overall I am very impressed with the performance and handling of the GIS, especially when the conditions become a bit rough: she floats like a cork over the waves and I have never felt out of control or that she couldn't handle the conditions we were/are sailing in.

Best regards,

Joost

Sounds similar to the Laser as far as weight distribution vs. conditions. Good.

Ok, so I've been sailing 3 more times since the start of this particular thread and I've realized that the real issue, for me, is the solo sailing. Remember, I'm 150lbs and I have extensive small dinghy sailing experience. Things are working better now, especially with the new and improved downhaul. That being said, this boat is still kicking my butt.

When I have a crewmember, there are no problems. The boat behaves quite well, it's predictable, and it performs.

When I'm solo, it's a whole different story. Everything below pertains to the boat when it's single handed/solo/by yourself. It does not pertain when there are two people to share tasks and weight up the boat.

Today I went out in what started as a Force 2. Full Sail. No problems, puttered along.

Then, the wind increased to a Force 3. A few times the boat really took off, up on full plane, we were screaming-- fast boat! I haven't gone that fast in a boat since I last sailed my Laser. I mean, it planes, no s**t planes, and it starts going! Exhilarating-- especially since I built it! Still full sail, but I was at the edge of control so I decided to reef.

I pulled in the first reef, which is half-way from the foot to Mik's first reef, about 60cm of sail. The new reef grommets worked great, I was careful and stayed just forward of the daggerboard case, and re-hoisted the sail while on the water. I put the boom on my shoulder and stay centered in the boat. The boat does its own thing with no one at the helm and all the windage. The boat tends to go broadside to the wind.

Up goes the sail and I start taking off again, but a huge gust comes along and slams me. I swing the bow into the wind and dump the sail but I can't stop the boat from going over, it just goes. It's like watching a train wreck and you're powerless to stop it. I step onto the daggerboard from the rail, and bring her right back up, I don't even get wet, but now she's full of water. I dump the sail.

When the GIS is full of water, it runs broadside to the wind like it does when the sail is down. This induces a rolling action in the waves that demands quick bailing, or the boat will easily go back over. After bailing we keep sailing, but I decided to put in the second reef as the wind continues to increase-- we're now full Force 3 with frequent higher gusts (maybe I'm being conservative with the winds speeds? I don't know, it was windy, great for fast laser sailing)

I put in the second reef (Mik's 1st reef) which is approximately 120cm of sail. I'm up front again, and I'm just adjusting something when the boat goes back over, except this time I understand what happens. Since the boat tends to run broadside to the wind, if I'm forward at all, the stern comes up a little, and the wind catches the underside of the boat and rolls her over. The waves help this happen. I couldn't believe it.

I bring the boat back up, and I bail (precarious, again) and then I sail home. No problems sailing back, except the winds were very shifty and of varying velocity due to the mountainous terrain around the lake. This meant that sometimes the reef was perfect and we'd really hum along, and other times, it was way too much and I just sat there barely moving.

Some things I discovered:

* The block on the yard works best when adjusted aft about 6-8 inches when at Mik's first reef (about 120cm of sail). This helps pick up the end of the boom, and makes the downhauls job a little easier. Again, good strong downhaul is key from keeping too much sail ahead of the mast, but adjusting the block made it much easier.

* The boat runs broadside to the wind when the sail is luffing or the sail is down, making stability precarious.

* The boat doesn't point as high when reefed (my imagination?)

* It's very important not to have too much sail forward of the mast. Mik said 40cm, right? Any more and she tends to behave funny and sometimes has trouble tacking. I did some experimenting, and this is a big factor.

* I don't weigh enough.

* Joost's hook from the the front of the boom to the tack is an essential idea.

Some things I would like to talk about:

* Bruce, you mentioned hiking straps, care to share (pic?)?

* Ballast. Again, I think for someone of my light stature, ballast might help here, especially in shifty winds. If I can get some of the hull in the water, it will improve stability and I can run on my first reef. This will give me speed. I know Joost mentioned reefing over ballast, and I initially agreed, but when I get stuck in lighter airs with a big reef set and I stop moving, that's no fun. I'm looking for a balance between reefing too much, or reefing a little and getting extra hull stability.

* Running the halyard to the center of the boat. It's been mentioned, but I have doubts about overcoming the friction that occurs between the halyard and the mast, where it wraps around going to the yard. Sometimes it takes all I have to get the yard back up the mast. I'm not using a block at the top, just the eye piece per the plans, Gruff etc. Maybe a block would help?

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Personally, I feel that a solo sailor in the boat would benefit from a little bit of ballast, and some sort of mizzen to get her to point into the wind when adjusting sails and/or bailing her out.

Am I the only sailing the boat solo, with nothing in it, in strong winds and some wave action? I can't be the only guy having these experiences, right? Anyway, I'm still having fun figuring out this new rig and new boat.

Howdy,

Good write up.

A couple of things to try. In the video where I am planing the GIS across the river I have full sail up in probably 12 knots gusting to early 20s. I am close to shore and also the purpose is to try and catch some footage of the boat showing its speed potential.

If I was going somewhere I would have been quite heavily reefed. It is a big boat for a singlehander.

I am not sure on what point of sail you are going over on ... When you are pointing up are you starting from a reach ... or are you going upwind beforehand?

If upwind there is probably not much that is possible to do other than ship more weight or reef further. One thing that is a bit of help is to pull the centreboard up about a foot (300mm) - it is not enough by itself.

As far as weight goes -a friend - or David Graybeal used sandbags for the first season while he got used to the boat - but he was learning to sail ... a stage you have passed.

So that is upwind. And you are steering the correct way.

I will run through what should happen when a gust hits going downwind - in case you are not aware of it.

Reaching or downwind the best strategy in a gust (you might know this) Is to ease sail a great deal (maybe a metre or more of mainsheet while bearing away sharply 15 degrees (or maybe double that in a really big gust. You might know this and be doing it already ... but it has three effects.

One is that the force from the sails is more aligned with the direction the boat is going ... so less lateral force ... and the easing of the sails gets rid of the hit from the gust. The boat then accelerates like crazy helping control.

The interesting thing is that the centripetal force from making the course change also tends to suddenly make the boat go level.

When the gust starts to end sheet in the sail and point up to your original course which powers the boat up in the lighter wind now. And the centripetal force tends to make the boat heel to windward less which is what you want as the gust passes.

Some describe it as sailing to keep the hull under the mast. But with practice it becomes very smooth. And it is the prime strategy for reaching or sailing downwind in stronger or gusty winds.

It is something that needs to be practiced.

In gusts ...

1. So when going upwind ... you ease sails and luff
2. When reaching or going downwind you ease sails and bear away.

Singlehanded in the Goat the angles when a gust hits going downwind are quite large because the boat is quite overpowered with one person and full sail - like in the video.

The fun part is that in force three or four the Goat will plane quite nicely with one aboard and full sail ... because you don't have the extra weight of the second person it was designed for. So when not thrillseeking or practicing the bearing away in a gust use the reefs.

Part of the reason I developed the RAID41 was to reduce the amount of water in most boats of this type after capsize. But as we saw it was a flawed approach ... that made the boat very high above the water and hard to get back into as it forces the sides to be higher and the boat floats high and free of water when righted.

I am still working through scenarios for the 12' Son of Goat project to try and get the best of both worlds.

Best wishes
Michael

Good advice, Mik, thanks.

I'm only have problems close hauled/upwind. Reaching and downwind is fine. She starts to go over and sometimes I can't stop her. A gust hits, and it's game over, even with my butt already hanging off the gunwale and my feet hooked underneath BH3. Today I had many close calls, clambering out onto the side, etc. and was able to stop her, but I'd like better control upwind, yet I still want the thrillseeking plane action. I want it both ways! She came out of the water today like a dolphin, the nose came up, the transom was actually still clear, and she started literally flying away. Everything got smooth and I was in total ecstasy. It was crazy awesome.

So that, more often, but without dumping her all the time.

I was thinking sandbags too. Here in the Northeast they sell these things called "tube sand", its a tube of sand about 50lbs (or whatever you put into it), and if you have a rear wheel drive pickup truck you throw a couple in the back to add some weight for traction in the winter. I was thinking two, 100lbs total, one on each side of the case.


EDIT!!! Any tips on how to set the sail when reefed? Do we just keep the same tensions like when the sail is full, or is there some reefing-tensioning that helps?

Hi Christophe

From your description, it sounds to me like the wind was Force 4-5.

With the first reef (my sail has reef points according to Mick's plan), I took the view that I was sailing in a strong wind and needed a goodly amount of tension in the sail so that it was very flat, ie. it was depowered a lot. I felt very comfortable with it like that. I probably could have done with less tension, but it was my first sail and therefore was being conservative.

I really cannot sail a boat without hiking straps. For me they provide security and let you get more weight over the side, and gives you purchase to get back inboard again. I had my bum over the gunwale touching the side of the boat, with my hammies on the gunwale. This is a lot more weight and down lower than if you are just perched on the gunwale, so it helps a lot. This is how I've sailed on all the classes I've raced. The only thing I will need to modify are my shorts. My hammies are still a bit bruised and tender after 5 days, so the mod I'm doing to my shorts is one that is still employed today. Rolls of fibre glass enclosed in pockets about 40mm wide and stitched vertically down the back seat and leg.

I'll post a pic of the strap soon. Basically it's just made from some of my mainsheet rope, fixed between the bottom of bulkheads 3 and 4 with a couple of SS eyes. It is sheathed with some stiff foam insulation which is of a length that makes it stand up and swing, but can also be made to lie flat on the bottom when not needed so that it doesn't get in the way. It needs to swing so that the distance is correct for if you are hiking out a lot or just a bit.

Sounds like the winds you are sailing in, with mountains around are really tough ones. If it's any consolation I normally sail in fairly clean steady coastal winds, but last Sunday had very gusty northerlies which have come all the way down the length of Britain, rather than nice and smooth off the sea.

I had a really hard time, falling three times in the boat, the last one badly. Decided I was not safe and retired. I had full sail up and should have reefed. Gusts were only up to 20 knots which I can handle normally, but strong hard gusts are a different matter.

So, I think your winds are the root cause. Plus you are sailing a two man boat, your quite light and carrying too much sail, especially in these early days of getting used to the boat.

A Laser is 75 sq ft, 3/4 of the sail you are carrying. In these stronger winds ( I agree that they sound much more like 4/5 than 3/4), you should probably be sailing something equivalent to a Laser Radial, that's 61 sq ft, only half of the Goat's area. Especially in strong gusty difficult conditions.

When it's windy and your reefed the downhaul should be on very hard - as hard as you can pull it. As a sailor you will be looking for the gusts coming at you, these give you a lift anyway, so you will be luffing anyway and luffing to reduce power. Never fight the helm, just let her go higher, only take as much power as you need. Let the front of the sail luff, still enough power in the back of the sail. Try sailing at a certain angle of heel. Sail up higher or lower simply keeping the boat at a comfortable angle of heel - ignore the sail.

Also can you check you mainsheet is running freely as it should. there seems to be something not letting you ease the sheet when you need to.

You are getting there, learning a huge amount with each sail. It does sound like the boat will handle the gusty difficult conditions with some extra weight in her for now, and please try sailing with less area up!

All the best,

Brian

Thanks Brian and Bruce.

Bruce, don't forget pics of the straps, thanks!

I also lost one of the bottom full-length batten. It has worked out a bit, and I couldn't get it back in since the sail was folded in the hull. It was getting hung up on the tiller/traveler, so I pulled it out to re-install once I adjusted something, and that's when I went over with the sail down. So, bye-bye batten. I never saw it go. They must sink faster than I remember. What are the pros/cons of leaving the top batten in place?

Where can I get another batten that's 7-8 feet long?

I'm at work now so it will be a few days until I can get back out. Actually, I'm all bruised up, so I could use a few days away from the boat.

Hi Christophe,

One thing I think you are doing that no one else is doing is sailing with full length battens in. Battens can flatten/depower the sail, but they can also maintain camber, especially if they are full length battens pulled in tight. In a Hobie 16, you put some tension in the battens to create more profle, slacken them off if you want to flatten the sail when it's windier. Perhaps the full length battens are meaning that when you slacken the sheet, instead of the sail luffing and losing power, it's maintaining a curved profile/power and pulling you in. I was thinking how the full length battens on the ballance lug rig interact with the mast on the port tack when they/the sail are pressed against the mast, are there strange things going on there? Have the capsizes been all on one tack?

Just a thought.

Ian

Good thinking, Ian. I'll pull out the remaining batten and see what happens.

Nothing too funny going on on a port tack. The battens bend around the mast very predictably. There's a picture somewhere of Mik sailing and it looks just like that. Like this but with battens and about to capsize.

Let's do a tally:

2 Capsizes under way, Starboard tack, close hauled.
1 Capsize when the boat was full of water after having been recovered-- wind wave action pushed it back over (I was swimming and not in the boat yet-- over the transom is the best way if you fail to step in when she comes up).
2 Capsizes when up front adjusting the tack of the sail, sails down.

You know something, I should be able to let the sail completely luff on a reach/broadside to the wind, but this is hard to do because there is so much on the downhaul, it won't let the boom swing to 90 degs. So the boat tends to accelerate while I'm trying to adjust something. Any suggestions?

Originally Posted by callsign222

there is so much on the downhaul, it won't let the boom swing to 90 degs. So the boat tends to accelerate while I'm trying to adjust something. Any suggestions?

There is something wrong here. Perhaps this is also why you cannot ease the sail out when sailing.

I use a lot of downhaul. When applied the downhaul pulls from the mast base, right next to the mast and up to the boom. When applied is it vertical, attached to the boom just by the mast? If it is then choose how hard it's applied it will not act to restrict the swinging of the boom.

Next time you are at the boat, rig here on dry land, downhaul on etc. Then swing the boom from side to side and see what is causing the restriction.

Brian

Originally Posted by callsign222

Good thinking, Ian. I'll pull out the remaining batten and see what happens.

Nothing too funny going on on a port tack. The battens bend around the mast very predictably. There's a picture somewhere of Mik sailing and it looks just like that. Like this but with battens and about to capsize.

Let's do a tally:

2 Capsizes under way, Starboard tack, close hauled.
1 Capsize when the boat was full of water after having been recovered-- wind wave action pushed it back over (I was swimming and not in the boat yet-- over the transom is the best way if you fail to step in when she comes up).
2 Capsizes when up front adjusting the tack of the sail, sails down.

A couple more things I'd be thinking - use the opportunity to look at what's going on when two of you are in the boat - look at how it's responding to a gust, is the yard bending and helping spill some air, when you ease the sheet a little bit, does the front of the sail luff and help dump power... Go out two up with the first reef and then the second reef in having set it up when you launch and look at the combination of out haul and downhaul needed to make the sail work as best as possible with these reefs in, then look at how you can achieve that when you are having to do so out on the water. First with someone else in the back helping with balance and keeping the tiller in the right place, later take that learning and apply it on your own.

I suspect what's happening is you get overpowered on your own, you put a reef in on the water, but with difficulties doing it on your own (boat's taking off as you raise the sail and still has some water in it...), you're having to grab the tiller and try to keep going. You've got the reef in but there's no downhaul tension so sail is still all wrong and overpowered.

For solo sailing I'd put a couple of small saddles in the corners where rear seat, transom and sides meet, stretch a bungee across the inside of the transom below the tiller. Put a wooden wedge sort of thing on the bottom one of the tiller spacer blocks to make a forward facing hook. Then if you're on your own, you can lock off the tiller in any position by grabbing the bungee and stretching it up to this hook. With the tiller fixed to leeward while you're reefing the boat should stay more stable, and if the boat starts to take off as you're hoisting the sail again, the rudder angle will make it round up and luff again. Should give you the opportunity to get things right before taking off again post reefing.

Go through the reefing sequence - sail down, tiller locked off, downhaul loose, reef in, sail up, downhaul tight as possible again till you find what works. Important is downhaul loose before you hoist the sail so you can use that to re-tension rather than relying on halyard tension. Joost's system with another line that ensures the boom is at the correct height when you re-hoist following reefing looks good.

Originally Posted by callsign222

You know something, I should be able to let the sail completely luff on a reach/broadside to the wind, but this is hard to do because there is so much on the downhaul, it won't let the boom swing to 90 degs. So the boat tends to accelerate while I'm trying to adjust something. Any suggestions?

Where is your bottom downhaul attachment in relation to the mast - forward, behind, right beside? Maybe look at what Joost has, there are some good photos of his setup and he seems to have it right, does yours differ? Does yard-halyard attachment point affect what's going on down there?

Look at how tight you have the head of the sail stretched along the yard - check Keyhavenpotters post on this being a critical adjustment.

Other things - yard and mast stiffness, are they in the ballpark with others? Too stiff a yard will stop depowering in gusts, but if the mast is bending in a gust, it's putting more profile on the sail and powering it up, opposite to what you want.

Biggest downside of the Goat following capsize would be the amount of water it scoops up and how free it is to slosh around. Going solo out of sight of the carpark, I'd be thinking about buoyancy bags under the middle seat and along each side in front of the middle seat, possibly either side of the back part of the boat. Along each side they'll keep the side floating higher when it's on its side, so less water is scooped in, they'll also limit the side to side slop which makes things go from bad to worse after a capsize. Problem is of course how to attach them properly - I've seen an 18ft sailing school sloop (fibreglass hull, steel centreboard) go right to the bottom when buoyancy bags ripped out - I think they were doing a practice capsize drill... At least we won't have that problem in the wooden GIS!

I'm about the same weight as you, just not as tall so I'm following this with interest, thanks for sharing what you're finding out about the boat!

Ian

Good points all-- we're getting there through process of elimination.

My mast is probably the strongest thing in the entire boat. I love my mast. It's a tight fitting square monster of a mast, it will not flex. Other masts shake in terror when my mast comes by. It's light too.

My yard has some nice medium flex to it... not too much, not too little. I don't have exact numbers but I could get some. It's rectangular too. It's a smooth even flex throughout the spar. Its not tapered, though... ?

My downhaul runs parallel to the mast. Up and down, right next to the port side of the mast. When I capsize, the sail comes down, I bail out all the water since the boat becomes quite tender with water sloshing from side-to-side, and then I release the downhaul, reef or re-hoist. The downhaul then most definitely gets the appropriate tension.

I love the tiller lock off idea. I've been thinking it, but keep getting lured by wind and water and end up putting it off.

Also, I think I might have too much sail forward of the mast. I just spent a bit of time looking at pictures and doing some mental comparisons (I'm at work) and I think I'm carrying forward about 15cm more than I should. 40cm is the rule, I'm probably around 55cm. I will change that too.

Just a reminder, once I put in the second reef (Mik's first reef) I haven't dumped the boat-- but then I'm not going very fast either. I'm looking for something in between those two extremes-- capsizing, or poking along.

So, keeping her flat with my first reef is the goal.