Thread: GIS X or Raid Special

Originally Posted by Boatmik

It is not a compromise - it is just a lack of understanding of the possibilities. Oz/NZ small ply boat structures are so far ahead of the Northern Hemisphere it continually surprises me. There are notable exceptions like some of the Moth class developments of which at least came half from the UK .. but apart from that there is an acceptance of heavy boats that are no more durable than our light ones.

Remember that Oughtred spent lots of years in OZ too racing the low hundred pound Gwen 12. (Mike, can you remember the hull weight?)

One of the big sticking points with the amalgamation of our 14 dinghy class and the Northerners was we had been happily building boats with a minimum weight of 140lbs but the the northern hemisphere boats couldn't see how durable boats could be built at about twice the weight.

Wooden Classic and heavyish ... they can show us a thing or two, but structures for small boats - they swapped to solid fibreglass to "reduce" cost and "lower maintenance", but because of the low volume market here .. it didn't really make sense until the 1980s when they using more expensive foam sandwich structures to try and match (and eventually exceed) the stiffness and lightness of wood.

MIK

I guess what I meant was if you want a feature such as water ballast, you have to have a tank to hold the water, so you have a double bottom. A double bottom means more wood. Side tanks so it floats high when capsized to keep the engine dry means more wood. An engine well means more wood. A mizzen means more wood and in these cases a remote tiller etc etc. All these features add weight, which some buyers are prepared to put up with, so they compromise and buy a Swallow instead if a Goat.

But I agree that Europeans generally liken weight to "quality" somehow. It's weird for sure, but it's not just boats either, European cars generally weigh 1/2 a ton more than a similar sized Japanese car. A quick flick through the Olympic classes sees very few lightweights. The Finn, FD, Star, 505 and Soling are all lumps, to name just a few!

Howdy, while it is a lot of fiddling around the tankage doesn't need to add a lot of weight.

basically an extra piece of ply 8 to 11kg.

But their hull weights are over double what we would do for a similar structure

The Goat is Robust.

MIK

The GIS is definitely robust! Very stiff and solid although very light. The whole structure is just very good and I would not like any changes to the construction and layout in a bigger boat!

Some feed back on comments above:

Sculling is, in my opinion, required for light vessels like the GIS rowed by a crew of 2:
- More speed
- Easier to balance
- Easier to make the boat track (most boats rowed side by side either have someone steer the boat or have a long keel)

I prefer a light open structure like the GIS to Swallow’s Bayraider:
- The Bayraider is a heavy boat. It is in Raids usually rowed by a crew of 4 (also required due to the width of the boat) which explains the speed. I do feel that a light boat with two persons sculling would be able to somewhat keep up with them.
- Water ballast makes a boat heavy where I like a boat to be light and nimble (she just floats over big waves!)
- The Bayraider is a lot more expensive
- The Bayraider is a lot more complicated

I don’t think that a GIS X should be that much longer so that the extra wetted surface becomes an issue. Just a bit longer (.5 meters maybe) to enable a easy set up for a second rowing position in the middle of the boat and some more storage space. The sail area is plenty for the GIS (with very light winds you might as well row) and when sailing to windward in a nice force 4 you have to really work to keep the boat the right way up. I therefore feel that it can be transferred to a boat a bit longer without any changes and definitely if a small mizzen is added.

Looking forward to more discussion!

Best regards, Joost

Originally Posted by Joost

Some feed back on comments above:

Sculling is, in my opinion, required for light vessels like the GIS rowed by a crew of 2:
- More speed
- Easier to balance
- Easier to make the boat track (most boats rowed side by side either have someone steer the boat or have a long keel)

I prefer a light open structure like the GIS to Swallow’s Bayraider:
- The Bayraider is a heavy boat. It is in Raids usually rowed by a crew of 4 (also required due to the width of the boat) which explains the speed. I do feel that a light boat with two persons sculling would be able to somewhat keep up with them.
- Water ballast makes a boat heavy where I like a boat to be light and nimble (she just floats over big waves!)
- The Bayraider is a lot more expensive
- The Bayraider is a lot more complicated

I don’t think that a GIS X should be that much longer so that the extra wetted surface becomes an issue. Just a bit longer (.5 meters maybe) to enable a easy set up for a second rowing position in the middle of the boat and some more storage space. The sail area is plenty for the GIS (with very light winds you might as well row) and when sailing to windward in a nice force 4 you have to really work to keep the boat the right way up. I therefore feel that it can be transferred to a boat a bit longer without any changes and definitely if a small mizzen is added.

Looking forward to more discussion!

Best regards, Joost

having not yet sailed / rowed a GIS, but with some experience in campcruising with dinghys and rowing shells, iI agree with Joost mostly.
So having some kids keen on rowing, i fitted a removable longitudinal twart from daggerboard case to mastbase, so two (and maybee 3, if removing mast and using front tank as well) rowing stations are possible. This would allow for a sliding seat option as well, but in the first dry run I only fitted a fixed seat.

Upwind performance: if there is to much wind, then hike or trapeze . My son is already keen for a trapeze in our goat, and certanly I will fit hiking straps.

Storage is a BIG issue in campcruising, and below the middletwart is few, even if extended to the double, so 0,5 to 1 m more length give a lot more storage capability. And with straps or trapeze or both a bigger sail should be handy.

Water ballast is evil , and not needed if there is a lot of camping gear.

Rowing: in our sculled rowing shells distance between rowlocks is 1.60 to 164, with single oar some 1.70 to 1.80, but rowers still lined up in the middle. For side-by-side rowing, boats are wider. A Goat X should stay below 1.60.

Rig: I'm in love with the flambart rig (some double lug scooner, F. Vivier gives this rig option for some of his designs), but for performance the (slightly enlarged) single balance lug would be great. With maybe double maststations to allow a mizzen, to satisfy Compass .

Speed compared to Ougtred: as far I can judge from the hullshapes, waterline lenght of the ness yawl is not that much longer than inj the goat. probably wetted surface matters more in a Raid.

Later more. Cheers - Jörn

Hi Jörn,

Nice to see you.

If your son is little then a trapeze might be fun, but if an adult it might be a lot of stress on the mast! Probably OK .. but I won't pay your insurance!

Waterline length is a little interesting as the canoe stern boats sink down quite deep as they generate waves - so the waterline length can be a lot longer than measured when not moving.

Thanks hugely for the rowing measurements! I had not started looking yet. Was going to look at some of the better plans from Duck Flat. Does anyone have a set of Oughtred plans for one of his bigger boats ... or his design catalogue so they can be scaled off his rowing boats.

"water ballast is evil" I agree almost completely!

Basically we are looking at simple, light, easy. The boat already goes quite well against bigger competition so to refine that.

MIK

Originally Posted by Joost

The GIS is definitely robust! Very stiff and solid although very light. The whole structure is just very good and I would not like any changes to the construction and layout in a bigger boat!

Some feed back on comments above:

Sculling is, in my opinion, required for light vessels like the GIS rowed by a crew of 2:
- More speed
- Easier to balance
- Easier to make the boat track (most boats rowed side by side either have someone steer the boat or have a long keel)

I prefer a light open structure like the GIS to Swallow’s Bayraider:
- The Bayraider is a heavy boat. It is in Raids usually rowed by a crew of 4 (also required due to the width of the boat) which explains the speed. I do feel that a light boat with two persons sculling would be able to somewhat keep up with them.
- Water ballast makes a boat heavy where I like a boat to be light and nimble (she just floats over big waves!)
- The Bayraider is a lot more expensive
- The Bayraider is a lot more complicated

I don’t think that a GIS X should be that much longer so that the extra wetted surface becomes an issue. Just a bit longer (.5 meters maybe) to enable a easy set up for a second rowing position in the middle of the boat and some more storage space. The sail area is plenty for the GIS (with very light winds you might as well row) and when sailing to windward in a nice force 4 you have to really work to keep the boat the right way up. I therefore feel that it can be transferred to a boat a bit longer without any changes and definitely if a small mizzen is added.

Looking forward to more discussion!

Best regards, Joost

Hi Joost,
I have not sailed in a Raid event and as for rowing novice would be a kind description in my case so your comments on the rowing elements are invaluable for a prospective GIS X with hopefully wide appeal.

I would inject a couple of issues here to consider.

1. I understand both European and North American crews do not tend to hike out a lot. Down here it seems being perched on the gunwhale trying to maximise performance is second nature hence my feeling that self bailing is important. I like to drive a boat hard when racing and the breeze is up thus inviting disaster or at least a dunking.

2. I have been thinking an outboard well and storage locker are important features because even though we are discussing a GIS for Raid events primarily there is plenty of potential for a boat that is a safe self sufficient passage maker for the more adventurous types. That is a long winded way of saying I can't see myself rowing a boat for hours on end.

3. Water ballast......I'm am not totally sold on this. If a simple trouble free system that would provide the equivalent stability of a 80-100kg Gorilla mainsheet hand is possible I'd go for it.

4. Length, without any technical basis for my opinion I am leaning to 18' to 18'6" as a starting point. I would like Mik to make more comment about some possibilities. It seems we are heading towards a modified GIS rather than an extended one and this may well be the outcome but I would like to see more info and thoughts on this.

5. Hull shape.....I think we all agree the Goat shape is too good to go past but I note Mik keeps referring to canoe sterns, could it be we may see a doublended Goat

6. Weight....I agree completely light weight is the way to go and should remain a high priority over gadgets and fancy features.

7. Sail Area.......agree with your comments on rig, loose footed with multi point easily reefed main with a balancing mizzen for me.

Now what else hmmm...............wide side decks extended outside hull sides....... joking Mik.

Mike

European crews do not hike out indeed!

I will have you know I have hung my cheeks over the gunnel on many an occasion. Our Scows banned toe-straps, very old sailors you see, so we younger ones strap the oars along the centreline and use them instead. Actually better than toe straps.

For the second rowing position, would it not be best to move that position forward and keep weight out of the stern. Something like a removable seat between dagger case and mast, with a second set of oarlocks up forward?

Don't forget that the Goat is becoming much better known just now and it would be a shame to develop a new one to confuse things, plus longer than 16' will not fit UK garages.

Brian

Mik,

You might want to check the following site:

http://www.jordanboats.co.uk/JB/iain_oughtred.htm

Shows pdf's of the Oughtred catalogue for each Oughred design referred to in this thread with study drawings and such.

Mike,

In Europe we do hike hard! Just not sure whether it is appropriate when raiding as I like some safety margin. I also have not installed in my boat yet as I first wanted to get to know the boat a bit.

I do feel that a slightly extended GIS (as detailed in my parameters) might be an interesting boat as I am not sure whether the current size of the GIS can accomodate the 2 thwart rowing thing. But Mik is in a far better position to give an accurate statement on it.

Joern,

Absolutely agree that the width of a Goat X should stay below 1.6 meters for convenient rowing.

Rig wise, it depends where you sail the boat and what your interests are. For pure raiding I wouldn't want to much sail area (I feel that even with hiking straps fitted the sail area on the GIS is still quite sufficient for a crew of 2). Please note that the crew can't hike conveniently any way when raiding as the oars have to be stored towards the side of the hull which kind of prevents the crew from sitting on the gunwale.

Looking at the other succesful raid designs I listed above, they don't carry that much sail area. They all carry between 8 m2 and 11 m2 depending on hull shape en weight...

Best regards,

Joost

Dear Brian,

Maybe people don't hike out on scows (perhaps indeed an age thing? )

Laser's, Europes etc. etc. are of course sailed hard with people hiking all over the place!

I do agree that if the interior of the Goat can be somewhat altered to accomodate 2 thwarts that would be an ideal solution. I am just not convinced entirely yet that it is possible as you need some width to make the rowing effecient and the boat might lack sufficient width up front and the lenght to do this.

What do you think Mik?

Best regards,

Joost

Well well well...........why did it take so long for you blokes to respond

OK Mik we definately need hiking straps and the water ballast just became a bigger maybe.

Brian that's interesting re garage size down here I was thinking around 19' max for same reason.

Hi all,

for water ballast: just get some Ortlieb or else watersaks. 20 kg ballast each, fresh water for cruising, and changeable from right to back to left. And easy to empty. And they do not sink in case of capsize. And can give additional flotation if needed.

Storage of oars: they could extend over the bow or stern, so being out of the way. Or along the middle axis over the daggercase, forming some hiking possibility like keyhaven scows. Or along the sides, to give some people a sidebench. There will be a way.

Hiking in Europe: Well covered by you all

Sail area: a third reef in a bigger sail should be easy, but a topsail in a light air is not that easy. But maybe a gennaker with some random oar as a bowsprit...

Trapeze: my son is around 50 kg, not that much. But with trapeze I understood that bending force for the mast is lower, in excange you get a lot of compressing force to the maststep. My guesstimation of strenght for the maststep is way should go, and compressing force of the mast itself should be no problemo.
What do you think MIK?

Garage: 4.80 m mostly in Germany, well suited for the GIS.

But there are those carports...they can hold a 6 m GIS X as well...that would be just two and a half sheet of ply...way like Bolger Lightscooner, but lighter... two trapeze unstayed mainmast would give some torque in the hull, but would be faaaaast...


Greetings - Jörn

Howdy All,

I am about to leave the Northern Hemisphere dwellers to continue discussion through the night.

Midnight here.

I think the main lesson I take from the RAID feedback is that small, light, simple not only has the chance to be in the top few boats but also has a much wider appeal for a variety of uses.

The same boat is suitable for gentle daysailing, planing around, picnics with four aboard (not to mention the dog), which is something most of the others in the list cannot do because they are not so portable.

I will mock up the rowing positions tomorrow and put them in the Goat drawing to see what it looks like if I have time.

Thankyou everyone very much ... and especially Joorn and Viola who caused all this wonderful excitement.

My feeling Mike is after a slightly different boat compared to most of the others here ... I imagine a long elegant box, a bit like the RAID but with Sharpie (in Europe/uk - 12sq m sharpie) proportions, but none of the weight or complication. The fastest, lightest box in the west. Though the Goat could even suit him ... just maybe.

I will just leave Mike with a little thought. I think the Germans and Dutch will find this recognisable and possibly the Brits too.

But Australians and the Americans will be blown away a bit.



Jollenkreuzer - a restricted sail area development class - very old - back to Manfred Curry and more.

Mike, it would be nice to do something semi disposable that gets a bit of this feeling. I don't think for a moment it should be this sophisticated a shape or have the cabin (maybe it was where that weird and kinda nice cabin on the RAID41 came from). And that stern is looking to push that fine little bow well under ... so think "Sharpie" but without trapeze.

on sophistication ... in fact you are here because of my lack of sophistication - making it a lot cheaper and simpler - a big varnished box with a modest amount of sail would be great fun.

No promises about it appearing though.

MIK

And mike ... just to remind you

Hi Mik, rowing measurements above are from our recreational boats, so here are rowing measurments for more performance rowers (german, sorry). http://sportfak.uni-leipzig.de/~lg-r...trimmen_7.html. rough translation: Distance middle of boat to axle rowlock with skulls 78 cm. For single oar boats different distances are given between 83,0 cm - 85,5 cm. Lenght inner lever is with skulls 8 cm (+ 2 cm) + half distance of rowlocks, with single oar 30 cm + half distance. Another link, scroll to the bottom of the page, there is a table with (slightly different) measurements in different rowing classes. http://www.rish.de/rudern/boote/trimmen/ hope they are useful. greetings . Jörn