Thread: GIS X or Raid Special

It occurs to me that all it would take to turn a Goat into a tandem rower would be to add a pair of oarlocks about 20 inches ahead of the middle seat.

Oh, yeah. I forgot to mention you would have to give up your preference for rowing while sitting and facing aft. Two forward facing oarsmen, one standing in the cockpit with his oars in the standard position, the other standing in the forward cockpit just in front of the middle thwart. The oarsmen could take alternate rest breaks every couple hours, the front guy just plops down on the middle thwart, still facing forward. When the after guy needs a rest he unships his oars, turns around and sits on the middle thwart facing aft.

Originally Posted by joern

Hi Mik, rowing measurements above are from our recreational boats, so here are rowing measurments for more performance rowers (german, sorry). http://sportfak.uni-leipzig.de/~lg-rudern/trimmen_7.html. rough translation: Distance middle of boat to axle rowlock with skulls 78 cm. For single oar boats different distances are given between 83,0 cm - 85,5 cm. Lenght inner lever is with skulls 8 cm (+ 2 cm) + half distance of rowlocks, with single oar 30 cm + half distance. Another link, scroll to the bottom of the page, there is a table with (slightly different) measurements in different rowing classes. http://www.rish.de/rudern/boote/trimmen/ hope they are useful. greetings . Jörn

HI Jörn,

I think these are for sliding seats. Probably won't go that far with the GIS! But thankyou.

I remember some quite small boats have two sets as Brian points out. But ouch ouch, the centrecase.

MIK

Michael

I posted last night but it doesn't seem to have come through...

I think minor mods to existing GIS meet most, if not all requirements.

Move the existing thwart to aft side of midships frame.
Add new thwart forward of daggerboard case - maybe a couple of inches, to
give rowing space in front of the aft rower. Extend top of DB case to meet new
thwart for bracing. Set up new rowlock sockets to suit. Single hander can sit
on a plank between the two. There's your rowing sorted.

Raise the fore & after decks up to the gunn'ls, or add extra deck above existing
ones at the gunn'ls. Seal the space & add hatches.
There's your stowage sorted.

Extend the bottom runners aft & deepen the aft end into skegs.
There's your tracking sorted.

MIK will probably now throw up some sound engineering reasons why it is not this
simple (pesky designers!!)

cheers
AJ

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Thankyou everyone very much ... and especially Joorn and Viola who caused all this wonderful excitement.

Yes indeed Mik and thanks for listening and moulding the discussion.

My feeling Mike is after a slightly different boat compared to most of the others here ... I imagine a long elegant box, a bit like the RAID but with Sharpie (in Europe/uk - 12sq m sharpie) proportions, but none of the weight or complication. The fastest, lightest box in the west. Though the Goat could even suit him ... just maybe.

Of course the GIS would suit me Mik but it is fun to explore possibilities. I was going to say improvements but that is not appropriate more tinker with a great looking shape sort of bolting a supercharger on to a V8..
Yes a sharpie but with much better manners.

I will just leave Mike with a little thought. I think the Germans and Dutch will find this recognisable and possibly the Brits too.

But Australians and the Americans will be blown away a bit.



Jollenkreuzer - a restricted sail area development class - very old - back to Manfred Curry and more.

Mike, it would be nice to do something semi disposable that gets a bit of this feeling. I don't think for a moment it should be this sophisticated a shape or have the cabin (maybe it was where that weird and kinda nice cabin on the RAID41 came from). And that stern is looking to push that fine little bow well under ... so think "Sharpie" but without trapeze.

Hmmm.........interesting by gingo I think you've got it. A hard chine version bit of weight loss in the stern quarters, some botox in the stem and chop a foot off the length.

on sophistication ... in fact you are here because of my lack of sophistication - making it a lot cheaper and simpler - a big varnished box with a modest amount of sail would be great fun.

No promises about it appearing though.

precisely..........we shall see, maybe enough interest will make it materialise.

Mike

Originally Posted by Boatmik

And mike ... just to remind you

Hang on he's still got his sunnys on and wearing joggers.......must be photoshopt.

No actually a European sailer still learning to hike

OK Mik put water ballast back in the wish list, kinda looks like it could be the middle of Lake Alexandrina sort of.

Originally Posted by b.o.a.t.

I posted last night but it doesn't seem to have come through...

I think minor mods to existing GIS meet most, if not all requirements.

Hear, hear - particularly if the rowers can be accommodated in the same length - keep the small is beautiful thing happening

Move the existing thwart to aft side of midships frame.
Add new thwart forward of daggerboard case - maybe a couple of inches, to
give rowing space in front of the aft rower. Extend top of DB case to meet new
thwart for bracing. Set up new rowlock sockets to suit. Single hander can sit
on a plank between the two. There's your rowing sorted.

Something like that makes sense ... haven't had time to do the drawing I was promising.

Does Brian have a contact for the Tammie Norrie with the two sets of oarlocks? Any chance that owner could measure the separation? HBBR person?

If I've got the CofG of the people then I can work out where the thwarts need to go - suspect AJ is about right, but I always have to check (that was the funny thing about working at Duckflat years ago .. Robert would have a blind stab and I would say that we have to work it out. Most of the time we agreed. But when one of us was real wrong ... I was the only one who could check his answer! )

. Or maybe I can still create interest in a platform in the middle of the boat which won't be as heavy as a full self drainer and allow more accommodation for the forward persons legs and allow more options for the distribution of the crew in different wind directions and strengths.

Raise the fore & after decks up to the gunn'ls, or add extra deck above existing
ones at the gunn'ls. Seal the space & add hatches.
There's your stowage sorted.

Nah. You lose too much of what makes it the Goat. There was not real problem in this area and also it does allow for storage of the oars. And stowage in the ends of the boat is the ABSOLUTE WORST PLACE. It slows dinghies down and it slows yachts down.

If you want to compete the load has to be near the centre of the boat.

Extend the bottom runners aft & deepen the aft end into skegs.
There's your tracking sorted.

Nah - look really ordinary and not good for sailing or the lively handling with the great directional stability. Lock the rudder off in the middle

MIK will probably now throw up some sound engineering reasons why it is not this simple (pesky designers!!)

DONE!

Thanks Mate. Proves again the value of writing stuff down ... makes me respond and we all get a bit further!

cheers
MIK

Awww bewdy !! An argument !!

Stowage. Joost thinks there is/was a problem.
I figure it was him as sailed the Caledonian, so he is probably right.
OK, we don't want heavy stuff in the ends. Sooo.....

Block in the forrard seat, heavy stuff like cans & drinking water under there.
Light stuff only to the ends. Maybe even sub-divide enlarged end-boxes vertically into
fore & aft partitions. Partition nearest centre of boat for stowage of socks, jocks, & etc.
Outer ends remain empty. Ultimately, load distribution is at the whim of the skipper.
There are some dills out there, but do they take serious part in RAIDs??

While I sympathise with the lowered decks being an important part of the Goat being
The Goat, I'm sure that it could be done artfully to minimise the impact. This is, after
all, no ordinary day-sailing Goat. This is a Raider's Goat. Need somewhere to stow
the horned hats & peasant-stickers. Oh, wait... they're heavy items as needs to
go under the thwarts...

Skegs.. that was my sacrificial lamb. you were supposed to knock that one down.
cheers
AJ

Tammie norrie shows oarlock position on the pdf I gave a link to. Son owns Tammie Norrie so can measure anything you need. Let me know and will organise.

Boat builder who built King Alfred boats and is about to build a Goat spoke about mods to Goat he was going to do. Will go back through old Water Crafts to find contact details and will ask what he is planning. He has a lot of Raiding experience.

Brian

Hello,

Some quick feed back:

No real storage issue for us in this raid. Anchor, chain and line (5+4+4=13 kg) was stored in a box on one side under the seat, box with flares and a bucket on the other side. Furthermore we had 2 small plastic watertight drums under the fore deck on either side of the maststep for spares and valuables. Clothes and food were stored in a waterproof bag on the fore deck in front of the mast. Oars and peddles are stored neatly under the gunwales. Enough storage space on board when camping gear and such is moved by the organisation. Otherwise it will be an issue.

The current thwart is quite big and allows for storage under the seats. Making the thwarts a bit less wide and moving the back one to aft of the mid bulkhead might create more space for sailing and rowing but you might loose efficient storage room.

I fully agree with MIK to keep as much as possible the same (I would really hate to see a loss to the good sailing qualities and looks of the GIS) -> no skegs, no high decks.

Regards, Joost

Hello Brian,

2 mods that John (the school teacher skippering one of the school boats) was thinking about were:
- raise the front dock to gunwale level
- european/american rudder system (no OZ style rudder box)

I am sure he has some more up his sleeve.

Best regards,

Joost

Mik your pic of the capsize reminded me of a website that may provide some extra thought starters ...................or perhaps a little comic relief

http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/index.htm#menu

Now there you go lets get serious about length

Man I finally caught up on the discussion....I've been very absorbed in some lofting of another Raid friendly boat, a dory.

I look forward to some sketches and will reserve judgement until then. We also do not need to wait for MIK to sketch...someone can do so. I am visual....need drawings

Clint

Originally Posted by Joost

Hello,

Some quick feed back:

No real storage issue for us in this raid. Anchor, chain and line (5+4+4=13 kg) was stored in a box on one side under the seat, box with flares and a bucket on the other side. Furthermore we had 2 small plastic watertight drums under the fore deck on either side of the maststep for spares and valuables. Clothes and food were stored in a waterproof bag on the fore deck in front of the mast. Oars and peddles are stored neatly under the gunwales. Enough storage space on board when camping gear and such is moved by the organisation. Otherwise it will be an issue.

The current thwart is quite big and allows for storage under the seats. Making the thwarts a bit less wide and moving the back one to aft of the mid bulkhead might create more space for sailing and rowing but you might loose efficient storage room.

I fully agree with MIK to keep as much as possible the same (I would really hate to see a loss to the good sailing qualities and looks of the GIS) -> no skegs, no high decks.

Regards, Joost

As far as making GISwerk (makes me think of all sorts of things that name - including the '70s electronic band Kraftwerk ... traaaans Euuuurope Exxxxpresssss). Also all your own intended meanings!

Glad you are keeping the weight in the central area of the boat. Helps speed and helps keep the boat dry in rough weather.

If I was going camping cruising I would probably make some boxes to go each side of the centrecase when I needed them in a standard goat. Take them out when not needed. OR if nothing was crushable just waterproof bags each side and sail the boat not to capsize - like you did in the RAID.

MIK

One comment I have to make with regards to the position of a thward forward of the centrecase: a bit of centreboard sticking out underneath the boat helps a big way to let the boat track decently (in combination with a partially submerged rudder).

A short centreboard just in use when rowing might be the answer here though.