Thread: GIS X or Raid Special

I know that this is not really up a lot of peoples street but it is an interesting example of a big raid boat - it won the Raid Caledonia last year. Very versatile thanks, in part, to the use of water ballast.

Anyway, Mik, what are you minded to come up with next?




More information:

http://cmartnzi.club.fr/cmartnzi/123...u/photobat.htm

And even a video:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H66cA78qDb4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H66cA78qDb4[/ame]

Multimono is one very big boat. Details copied from the Multimono site:

Monohull epoxy ply construction.
Length: 7.5m
Beam: 2.29m/4.5 with wings
Weight: 530kg/950kg with full water ballast
Draught;0.3m/1.7m
Sail area: main: 26m ;jib: 7.2 ;Yankee: 6m ;spinnaker: 30m
11/13 person capacity in CE class C/D
outboard 30hp max

To be successful in a raid, especially on the rowing legs, you'd better bring a lot of frieds to man the oars to get it up to speed: 4-6 rowing positions! The draught with the centreboard down is a bit much for the shallow waters in the Netherlands.

Yes, it is absolutely huge. The designer was talking about doing a 6.5m version a couple of years ago but it looks like he has his hands full with demand for the big one from schools and training organisations.

Originally Posted by Boatmik

on sophistication ... in fact you are here because of my lack of sophistication - making it a lot cheaper and simpler

Have to disagree with you on this one... (yes, I recognize that you tend toward self-deprecation)
Successful simplification itself is a form of sophistication - it is not so intuitive to find ways to remove bits from a design while still maintaining function and performance.
So, I see it a bit in reverse, good design and engineering can lead to (sophisticated) simplification, which leads to light weight, which leads to lower costs.

Cheaper needn't be a design goal but can be a desirable outcome of good design.
Goodness knows there are many things of all types that are designed for low cost only - seldom with good results.

You may minimize what you do, but we don't have to accept that you do it by accident.

It's rather cheeky to be arguing with our esteemed leader but in this case--since I have to agree with everything you say--I'm going to give you a pass.

I too share that view as expressed in my first post:

Originally Posted by woodeneye

For quite a number of months now I have been looking for a boat building project and I stumbled across the Goat. I’m very impressed with the design and its overall simplicity and light weight, not to mention great looks too. Actually, it’s so simple it’s brilliant.
J

Nice comments you blokes, now all we have to do is convince Mik it is worth his while to do a 19' or there abouts version utilising the same lack of sophistication we all admire.

Originally Posted by Clarkey

I know that this is not really up a lot of peoples street but it is an interesting example of a big raid boat - it won the Raid Caledonia last year. Very versatile thanks, in part, to the use of water ballast.

Anyway, Mik, what are you minded to come up with next?




More information:

http://cmartnzi.club.fr/cmartnzi/123...u/photobat.htm

And even a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H66cA78qDb4

Peter (Biting Midge) and I were talking through last year about these boats. A REAL Oz skiff would be so much faster. Like the guys who sailed the Tornado in that multiday race in Florida and whipped through the event in about a day and a half.

There is such a gap in performance between regular raceboats and these specialist boats - which strikes me as really strange. The specialist boats emulate most of the expensive features of the raceboats but seem to bypass some of the simplicity and effectiveness that raceboats have underneath the expensive bits.

Won't emulate that path.

MIK

Getting back to beam I'm thinking now go with 4'. One sheet wide will save a lot of mucking around but add Cherub style fixed wings ( they can't be too hard to build ) . Next step is to think about how to incorporate rowing Nah who am I kidding an outboard well is much more useful.

No guts no glory.

Have you seen the Stainless Steel track method? Some trailer sailors use Ronstan Track

Have a track in the cockpit so the outboard lies down wth the prop upwards when in the cockpit, well forward of the transom ... when it is slid to the back of the cockpit it swings down over the back.

No drag from the well but no outboard hanging off the back of the transom.

MIK

Yes Mik, I know exactly what you refer to can't remember what I've seen it on.
That would be an excellent solution.

Looking at outboards how do you think a 2hp 4 stroke would go, Honda have one weight 12.7kg half as heavy as a 5hp.

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Peter (Biting Midge) and I were talking through last year about these boats. A REAL Oz skiff would be so much faster. Like the guys who sailed the Tornado in that multiday race in Florida and whipped through the event in about a day and a half.

There is such a gap in performance between regular raceboats and these specialist boats - which strikes me as really strange. The specialist boats emulate most of the expensive features of the raceboats but seem to bypass some of the simplicity and effectiveness that raceboats have underneath the expensive bits.

Won't emulate that path.

MIK

My thoughts exactly!

The Multimono skiff is fast (compared to the smaller raid boats, not to an OZ 18 ft skiff), but that seems to be more due to its size (long waterline, water ballast, massive sail area and many people on the oars) rather than that the boat is an impressive feat of designing or engineering. And due to the size (and weight) you need a big crew to handle her and to make it go fast in all conditions.


I would like to think that most (if not all) raids are won by the crew who can keep a good pace during the whole duration of the event regardless of weather conditions and whether sailing or rowing. In other words, you need:

• a proper all-round sail&oar boat; and,
• an all-round experienced crew that knows the boat well and is able to both sail and row the boat hard and fast in all conditions (this might even be more important that no. 1)!

The way I conceive the GIS is the following: the GIS is a boat predominantly designed for sailing (it is after all advertised as a simple sailing boat on MIK’s site!) that actually performs very well under oars without the designer having made any true concessions to its sailing qualities.
In other words, it is in fact very much an all-round sail&oar boat (and therefore a good raid boat), but its rowing qualities seem to be more of a byproduct, though a very welcome one, than that the designer had them in the back of his mind when designing the boat. But please correct me if I am in the wrong here MIK!

The design question however that I (personally) still have is the following:

Does it make sense and is it feasible and/or realistic, under the following preconditions:

• using the GIS design and concept as a basis (well thought through simplicity and design resulting in a light weight boat with excellent performance)
• whilst not making any concessions to the GIS sailing qualities
• but taking into account that 2 persons rowing would really mean very competitive raiding qualities (more speed under oars especially in a head wind)

to come up with a lightweight flat bottomed skiff that would truly “upset” the European raiding world in the hands of a competent crew (and I am pretty sure it would also perform very well in an event as the Texas 200 as well!) but would still be a great sailboat without having made any consessions???

Sitting behind my desk, I keep thinking about a stretched GIS (just 10% and keeping most of the other dimensions more or less the same). This would mean a boat length of appr. 520 cm which would allow for more room to fit a second thwart. I also think that a slightly bigger boat, although heavier and therefore not that easy any longer to move on land, might appeal to a lot of people wanting something that fits the whole family when day sailing…

By the way, I am very much impressed by the raiding events in the US; they are much more adventurous and self reliant than the ones in Europe. These events are also open to vessels of any kind (including fast catamarans and such) as long as they don’t have a motor on it (rowing, paddling and sailing are all allowed), whereas the European events normally demand the boats to be somewhat traditional (e.g. square sails).
They are a very interesting concept and something I hope we will also see in Europe in the future. But for me the next raiding event we will probably participate in is the Dorestad Raid in the Netherlands in September.

Best regards,

Joost

Interesting Jim Michalak take on an extended Texas 200 boat on Duckworks

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/09/...guna/index.htm



Brian

Hi Brian,
Yes read that Chuck and Jim have been conspiring . One thing I just can't come at is lee boards, yuk.