Thread: GIS X or Raid Special

Wow....20'

I'm still for a GIS X, too. I'd say a key component would be to have more room for a third person. The sail area may have to be much greater to account for increased wetted surface. Maybe that can be accomplished with a mizzen sail and mizzen staysail for off wind sailing.

Mike, why stitch and glue?

Hi Clint, when I first saw your GIS Yawl concept, I thought the way to go (rather than putting a new mast step in front of bulkhead one) was to increase the length by say 20%, while keeping everything in proportion. With the same sail, the centre of effort will be forward of where it was, which gives the opportunity to put your mizzen on to bring it back into balance. Would make a nice 18.5ft yawl that could be cruised, possibly set up so two could sleep on board.

At above this size does it make more sense to go away from the flat bottom to a couple of chines, both from the 'pounding into a chop' point of view and the structural side? (I'd be curious to hear Mik's perspective on whether the GIS shape/construction method can be pushed that far).

I've been having a bit of discussion with Ross Lillistone about a boat at around this size - 18.5 - 19.5 ft , still on a 5ft beam, stitch and glue, three pre-cut panels a side, ketch with the GIS sail as the main, the mizzen at a size that can still power the GIS on it's own. ( So we can put a sail on each boat and have family races between it and the GIS). 100 hour build? (Possible if the rig, foils and rudder box can just be transferred over?) Additional middle mast step/partner through a seat so it also balances with either sail in that position. Carbon spars and some sandbag ballast in the bottom, hopefully it can have a righting moment right out to 80 degrees or so. Room for two to sleep on board and hopefully still light enough for the crew to pick up and carry above the high tide line once the sandbags and gear are thrown out. Still a couple of years away from potentially building it, aim is a serious camp cruiser that can still be manhandled up and down a beach.

Ian

Originally Posted by Compass Project

Wow....20'

I'm still for a GIS X, too. I'd say a key component would be to have more room for a third person. The sail area may have to be much greater to account for increased wetted surface. Maybe that can be accomplished with a mizzen sail and mizzen staysail for off wind sailing.

Mike, why stitch and glue?

Hi Clint,
Trying to figure how to build a 20' boat in an 18' space
if all the panels can be cut then stitched and filleted to hold it together and fair with some inwhales and frames etc. in one weekend of assembling then I could move it in and out of the work space.
Well that's the theory.

Originally Posted by m2c1Iw

Mik,
Thought I'd revive this old thread and ask if this length could be built stitch and glue without a strongback and molds or is 20' pushing the envelope?

I can't see any problems if care and a sensible procedure is used/documented in the plan.

MIK

Originally Posted by IanHowick

Hi Clint, when I first saw your GIS Yawl concept, I thought the way to go (rather than putting a new mast step in front of bulkhead one) was to increase the length by say 20%, while keeping everything in proportion. With the same sail, the centre of effort will be forward of where it was, which gives the opportunity to put your mizzen on to bring it back into balance. Would make a nice 18.5ft yawl that could be cruised, possibly set up so two could sleep on board.

Good observation about extra length, the centreboard would need to be moved as well of course. Clint decided that it was easier to move the mast. Also need to find a way to put more buoyancy in the hull.

Bigger boat ...

I have been thinking about this as well. My main question is that the GIS was designed as a two person boat, but we are finding them much more used by one person with another person sometimes.

So if I draw up a bigger boat ... will that be the case again. Would be a bit worried about a single person in a 18 or 20ft boat getting upright after a capsize. Start talking about ballast and it moves away from simple, light and relatively cheap.

At above this size does it make more sense to go away from the flat bottom to a couple of chines, both from the 'pounding into a chop' point of view and the structural side? (I'd be curious to hear Mik's perspective on whether the GIS shape/construction method can be pushed that far).

Two perspectives on this ... (I am really bad at counting small numbers). Construction - no probs.

First is that a chine panel increases serious pounding and you can't do anything about it. There is a kind of assumption that the boat will sail level and the vee of the bow will cut the waves. It is a very mistaken assumption. That's why sharpies are so well known for being dry and smooth sailing in rough water - apart from the usual big slam - more common in big sharpies than little ones because you can't control the boat heel.

Many modern racing yachts have gone to a much more square shape in cross section - now that they only have to worry about the speed of the hull rather than following a particular rule that shapes the hull.

I suspect that a lot of the hull failures in 70s and 80s lightweight yachts was because of falling down on flat flared topsides or bow sections.

Second is that if the boat is bigger, it becomes much harder to handle on land or water. The GIS was intended to be around the 140 lb mark for the hull so it could be "personhandled" on shore. Some, or even most, have done a lot better than this!!!

A 20 footer is a monster compared to the GIS.

The third reason is with the pinch in at the transom, going much longer means the boat will become almost canoe sterned. I would put more of the lateral curvature more forward if I was going that way.

Fourth reason ... is that the GIS has shown itself formidable in the Caledonia RAID - coming third and winning a leg. Also finishing third on every rowing leg. It is a banner waver for simple, light and uncomplicated.

Clint and John's Yawl version broadens the uses of the boat without complicated unduly. I would probably still go with the original rig ... i suspect the slightly lesser weight in the ends of the boat will make it faster in non smooth conditions and the overall weight reduction will help too.

In a way, while I think the cat rig might be faster, the yawl version ticks the boxes for many as well reducing the financial viability of a plan for a bigger boat with much the same function.

Not saying no ... just my thinking so far.

If I do something bigger ... i promise it will be different from everything else on the market using my normal method ... by stealing a whole bunch of clever features developed by a bunch of other people and putting them together in a new way.

It needs to be like that to be successful in the marketplace .. and also satisfying to me as a project.

MIK

Yes, I think 20' is really trailer-sailor territory. Not that I'd mind a Storer Trailer-Sailor* at all, as this is the way that my wife and I will be sailing together in the future when retirement sets in. I won't be giving up my GIS though as it ticks all my boxes for easy single handing and an occasional crew.

* One day maybe?

I PM'ed Mik about this a few weeks ago.

I've been seriously considering the Campion Apple 16 as my next boat, perhaps, maybe, maybe not. It's about the right length, with multiple chines, and even a tumblehome option if one would like to built it as such. There are a lot of options. It carries an almost identical rig to the GIS Yawl (amongst others), and it can be built in a open-water cruising version with decks. It can also sleep two on the floorboards.

APPLE - a fast, well mannered yawl-rigged, balanced lug dinghy

Thumbnails

The website is built badly-- so bear with it. You may notice the iconic plumb bow!

Something like this is my vote. The Goat is awesome, I love her and she loves me, and we have been inseparable this summer. However, I need something with more seakeeping ability. Yesterday in Casco Bay, hot on the heels of the Nor'Easter that blew into town, Al and I shipped a lot of water right over the bow, waves breaking into the boat, and Al was obligated to bail her out as I hiked out. It was a great time! But a deck and splash guard would have mitigated this, keeping us dryer and focused on sailing. A rounded bilge of some sort would help tremendously from getting slapped around as much.

Also, the Goat is light but too heavy for me alone, especially when loaded. When I'm alone in a cruising area that has 10-12 foot tides and sloping shores, I either have to time the tides just right, or continually drag her up or down the beach as the tide goes regardless of other activities (like sleeping!) or keep her moored offshore on impossibly lengthed haul-outs that either impeded navigation or get tangled in sea grass. Legitimate sleeping area down low with a tent over the boom would vastly increase the anchorages and islands that would be acceptable for camping.

However, the Apple has some problems, and Mik could probably improve on the design by making it:

--Easier to build, and therefor, cheaper to build. Economics should play a large role in designing the boat. Keep it simple, keep it cheap. Huge long boats will not equal cheap or light. Jim Michalak illustrates this in many of his plans, as length increases weight, cost, and labor go up on an unrelated and almost exponential scale.

--Lighter and just as strong with Mik's techniques of awesome, but it doesn't have to be mega-light.

Also, it would have the Storer name on it, and that would be rad, for me, a big fan.

In the end, we are asking for a difficult boat to be designed. Light and easy to handle for one person, large enough to sleep two, seakeeping ability like a Navigator, and cheap and easy to build. A lot of difficult problems to reconcile with each other, and hence probably a lot of compromises.

Capsize recovery is important!


Ian, you mentioned Lillistone. I really like his designs like the Pheonix III, but he lowers sail area with the lug as opposed to what he carries on the sprit/jib combo. This is unfortunate, and if he does something a little bigger or wider than the Pheonix, I hope he follows Mik's example of large sails for ghosting ability, and trusting the owner to reef appropriately. Many plans are now scratched from my list just because of lack of sail area. Phooey, in the summer I need all I can get!

Originally Posted by woodeneye

Yes, I think 20' is really trailer-sailor territory. Not that I'd mind a Storer Trailer-Sailor* at all, as this is the way that my wife and I will be sailing together in the future when retirement sets in. I won't be giving up my GIS though as it ticks all my boxes for easy single handing and an occasional crew.

* One day maybe?

I think it is a more sensible step. MIK

Originally Posted by callsign222

I PM'ed Mik about this a few weeks ago.

I've been seriously considering the Campion Apple 16 as my next boat, perhaps, maybe, maybe not. It's about the right length, with multiple chines, and even a tumblehome option if one would like to built it as such. There are a lot of options. It carries an almost identical rig to the GIS Yawl (amongst others), and it can be built in a open-water cruising version with decks. It can also sleep two on the floorboards.

To keep something light ... you can reduce depth, height or width.

If going more towards two rather than three or four people like the goat,

I would almost be inclined to relook at the Swedish Canoes with more of a BETH approach. Lower freeboard and more deck. Go for a longer boat but less freeboard and width. Closer to fully decked. Potential for some removeable ballast.

Sounds familiar ... almost like a longer RAID41 - which makes more sense as a two person boat in many ways. Lower freeboard. Possible some flare to the sides, though I am not sure about what it will add - probably not much on a lower topside.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

If I do something bigger ... i promise it will be different from everything else on the market using my normal method ... by stealing a whole bunch of clever features developed by a bunch of other people and putting them together in a new way.

It needs to be like that to be successful in the marketplace .. and also satisfying to me as a project.

MIK

Well Mik I'm pleased to read the concept is not dead. My initial excitement for this design was somewhat overwhelmed by other projects and so could not commit to a build however it is nice to plan ahead.
My thinking is still centred on a go fast round the buoy style boat like the "Usual", one that will surprise the fleet yet will be relatively easy to handle and still please the performance cruise orientated.
To me good upwind boat speed is a defining element of a good design. I have found despite the saying gentlemen are often required to go to windward.
With regard to crew I understand your reservations about singlehanding as sadly in this busy day and age it seems finding a crew is sometimes difficult which all but forces sailors to solo but at around 20' I would think a skipper and one crew will always be the minimum with the nice option of adding a second crew comfortably.

I guess I'm repeating myself with this post but it will be fun to see the wish list and ideas develop for this style of boat.

Well the RAID41 was part of the upshot for this, but the learning curve was pretty steep.

So thing is to take the lessons of that and work out a new approach.

I think the RAID was a bit fraught, but not as fraught as it first seemed. I am left with a suspicion of high topsides and self draining combined with ballast - unless you are experienced enough to remount from the centreboard as teh boat rights - so that is not such a possible direction any more.

The RAID might end up contributing to a trailer sailer concept with a keel or even a disabled sailing boat - sailed rather a lot better with double the design ballast than I thought it would.

MIK

Hmmm...

I think: Long Beth (ca 20-23 ft) would be interesting speed boat for raid... with or wihout ballast and for 1 up to 2 of crew...

Compare to Phil Bolger's Tarantula and Uffa Fox's Brynhild...

Originally Posted by robhosailor

I think: Long Beth (ca 20-23 ft) would be interesting speed boat for raid... with or wihout ballast and for 1 up to 2 of crew...

Concept sketch as an attachement:

I think there is a difference in ideas here.

Are we looking for a European RAID boat where every night is spent in a local inn and there is a support team and it's all quite cushy and organized?

Or are we thinking New Zealand/North American multi-day unsupported coastal cruising in open oceanic water, with the possibility to sleep aboard with a hook out when we can't find a suitable beach due to rocks and tides?

I think these are two different boats.