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Thread: Goat Island Skiff
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29th May 2008, 10:32 AM #91
Howdy Paulie,
I think we have a different definition of a contribution. Your post looks like one to me!
Thankyou
MIK
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8th June 2008, 02:19 PM #92SENIOR MEMBER
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Keep us posted, Paulie.
Cheers,
Clint
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14th June 2008, 12:04 PM #93
Michael,
With our projected start date almost upon us, my lumberyard has suddenly discovered that some of the materials I ordered will be hard to get.
Specifically, they are concerned about all of the 5.1m lengths. They want to know if any of those lengths can be made up of shorter pieces scarfed together. I assume that this is impossible for some parts (e.g., the inwales and the fairing batten). But is it possible for gunwales (assuming I offset the joints) and chine logs? Is it possible on the rectangular hollow mast (again assuming I offset the joints)?
The yard was also iffy on the availability of western red cedar and asked if white cedar would do. Not knowing the difference between the two, I told them I'd have to pass the question on.
Of course, I can always try other lumberyards. Mystic Seaport is just an hour up the road. There are several yards up that way which specialize in material for wooden boats. I'm sure that one of them will have what I need. But I was hoping to avoid starting a new search with so little time left, especially as I'll be out of town for several days next week.
Thanks, as always.
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14th June 2008, 01:35 PM #94
Scarfing is no worrie at all Paulie. Read the section in the appendices about gluing endgrain and use a minimum 6:1 scarf.
The red cedar was specified because of its lightness. The white cedar is not particularly light - it looks like it around the same weight as fir. See if the local yards have something light that glues well otherwise use the white cedar or fir for those bits.
A decade ago we used to get heaps of Fir (Oregon pine to the locals) and Western red cedar from the USA and Canada for the housing industry. Boatbuilders could pick through the construction grade stuff to find fantastic old-growth timber to build their lightweight flying machines.
No more - and it is a good thing - makes it more difficult to build refined boats though. Though in OZ we are starting to see plantation grown Paulownia (sometimes called Kirri) - which is lighter than cedar - straight grained and good to glue. It would be a great substitute for any of the cedar bits in any of my boats. The Chinese use it for windbreak forests as well as growing it for timber.
Here are some links to a number of North American species and their properties
Softwoods (white pine looks like a possible if knot free-ish.
- Amabilis Fir (Species Mix: Hemlock-Fir)
- Douglas-Fir (Species Mix: Douglas-Fir-Larch)
- Lodgepole Pine (Species Mix: Spruce-Pine-Fir)
- Ponderosa Pine
- Sitka Spruce (Coast Sitka Spruce)
- Subalpine Fir (Species Mix: Spruce-Pine-Fir)
- Western Hemlock (Species Mix: Hemlock-Fir)
- Western Larch (Species Mix: Douglas-Fir-Larch)
- Western Red Cedar
- Western White Pine
- White Spruce & Engelmann Spruce (Species Mix: Spruce-Pine-Fir)
- Yellow-Cedar
Best wishes
Michael
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14th June 2008, 02:03 PM #95
Hey PAR, Paul, where are you?
Can you help here? What I generally do with my plans is that I specify three levels of wood for the construction - all of which were formerly available in OZ, but are not even that available in their native countries now.
Anyway ... specified ...
- Spar grade Oregon Pine (Fir with a fine grain) - now completely unavailable in OZ.
- Oregon Pine (Douglas Fir in the USA) - as the main timber for high structural loads and lower loads where something might get bumped around a bit - eg gunwales etc.
- Western Red Cedar - for internal chines and cleats - it is lighter than the fir, glues just as nicely and saves quite a bit of weight.
- Hardwood - just a generic for bottom skids or protective laminations on the outside of gunwales etc.
I continue to use these names but have reframed them as generics - that the timbers serve a different function and suggest some options.
Can you suggest some alternatives for each group that are available in Nth America within the ply and epoxy built boat scenario (I know you do much more than this)? Would be extraordinarily grateful.
Cheers
Michael
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14th June 2008, 09:38 PM #96
THANK YOU!
You've just saved me hours of time on the phone plus a ride in a gas-guzzling truck to a distant lumberyard. This info will get me back on track.
I've got a carpenter buddy and the lumberyard owner going over the substitution list to see what is readily available locally. I will post back our final choices to you can add them to the knowledge base.
Thanks again.
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14th June 2008, 09:57 PM #97
Okay Michael, but it's subject that easily could be a book (or two) if especially comprehensive.
There have been some changes in North American supplies in recent years, most having to do with fast growth hybrids and lesser quality native species being passed off as the lumber of old.
Specifically, there's a product (I use this word intentionally, as it's an engineered species) called Hem-fur, which is hemlock crossed with fur. It's getting sold as Douglas fur and it's crap, rots at the mere mentioning of moisture and isn't particular strong for it's weight.
To identify this stuff the heartwood is light brown with a pink tint, the sap wood is difficult to distinguish from the heart, course, uneven grain, some shake in wider boards. It's about 26 - 28 pounds a cubic foot and is a weak wood for it's weight, has low rot, shock and impact resistance. Generally a bit of engineered junk wood that grows fast so it can make harvester's money.
Douglas fur has declined in recent years, but good examples can still be found if you know wood. Picking through a stack of boards, you'll run across a couple, that seem heavier then the others. Look these planks over and you'll see they have a much tighter grain pattern. This is the stuff you want. It's moderate to good at rot resistance, shock and impact (for a softwood). It works as well in structural applications but can be quite difficult to finish smooth. The grow ring have widely different densities, which when sanded will produce a washboard effect. No amount of sanding will remove this, just filler.
With sitka spruce becoming so prized (read costly) I've been using white spruce for small brightly finished spars. It's slightly lighter then sitka and has similar compressive, fastener holding and machining qualities. In larger sticks (say 35' or more) you should consider another species, Douglas fur if painted.
Western larch is about the same as Douglas fur in properties and is often sold as such. It's heavier and checks less (a well know issue with Douglas fur), but still checks, more then acceptable in finish applications.
Red Western cedar is a light weight relatively weak lumber that doesn't hold fasteners well. It's best suited for thin planking on small boats, used as veneer or in strip planking.
If I had to pick a cedar for structural applications I'd use Spanish cedar (or yellow cedar). It's heavier, denser, stronger and holds fasteners, plus has fine rot resistance.
Ponderosa pine is useless in boat building applications, except as picture frame material for hanging your better half's portrait on a bulkhead.
Lodge pole pine is basically another name for western larch.
Yellow cedar is a nice medium weight wood, very fine grained and exceptional rot resistant. It holds fasteners well, finishes very well and is quite strong.
Hardwoods are pretty simple, most of the white oaks. There are two basic oak groups in north America, white and red. Don't even think about any of the reds, they rot easily, aren't as strong as they should be for their weight and unless used as a deadwood assembly, in a large boat, which will remain on a mooring in salt water (where they will not rot) shouldn't be considered.
The white oaks (evergreen and live oaks are the other common whites) have wonderful qualities. So much so the British tried to cut it all down before they lost the war with the colonies. It's dense, heavy and very strong. I prefer live oak, as it has an interlocking grain and isn't as subject to checking like other hardwoods can be. The USS Constitution was built entirely from live oak and the very reason she got the nick name Old Iron Sides, as the British cannon balls literally bounced of her flanks (no wonder they tried to steal it all). White oaks can be tricky to epoxy well. I can do it, but I use special prep and thin laminations.
Ash and elm are very similar and make great beams. Good examples may be stronger then oak. It's less weight too, about 42 pounds a cubic foot. Elm is lighter and not as strong, but most folks can't tell the difference between the two. It wears very well and makes good countertops and cockpit gratings.
Southern yellow pine. Yep, it's a softwood, but in name only, it's tough stuff and a fine structural lumber. It has good rot resistance, holds fasteners and finishes well.
Locust is a good wood, very dense and strong. Tunnels were often made from it, as were cleats, belaying pins, etc. If you can find some, use it.
Maple is an interior wood, as it has poor rot resistance, but it's a pretty lumber. Furniture makers have prized it for generations.
Alder is called the great imitator because of it's ability to mimic other woods with some color matching. It bends very nicely and is often seen in those arched back chairs. It has little rot resistance so keep it dry.
Birch can be commonly found in plywood, but it too has little rot resistance. Embalmed in epoxy it's a pretty wood with good qualities.
Those in North America should download "FPL-GTR-113" from the US Department of Agriculture. This is the "Wood Handbook" and has the physical properties of most common domestic and imported woods.
I use live or white oak exclusively for bottom rub strips, runners, skid plates, etc. Live oak is especially well suited for these tasks, as is locust.
In the USA, plywood made in country to marine grade, will be Douglas fur or western larch. Most folks are opting for the imported stuff, such as Hydocore (mercani) or Aquacore (Okoume), which are fine products, if manufactured well.
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15th June 2008, 12:13 AM #98New Member
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While shopping at my local lumber yard (not a big box store) for plywood for my PDR I found a product called Radiata pine. It is virtually knot-free, available in lengths up to 16' long and up to 10" wide. It seems to take glue well. It seems quite light, perhaps not quite as light as WRC and while not as stiff as Doug fir I feel OK using it for chine logs as well as framing timber attached to bulkheads.
The stuff is plantation grown somewhere in South America, and while not as cheap as typical lumber yard SPF or Hem/fir it is cheaper than WRC or Doug fir. Also the idea of not using up precious old growth timber has it's own appeal.
Has anyone else used this stuff or thought about it?
David
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15th June 2008, 03:42 AM #99
radiata pine = Monterey pine
Heavy, low strength & abysmal rot resistance.
Can be treated with Copper-chromium-arsenide to make it very rot-resistant, but this doesn't help its strength or weight. Probably illegal outside australia anyway...
Extensively planation-grown in Australia & NZ as building / construction ply / pulp-wood. It's fast & cheap to grow, & tolerates heat/cold/dry.
There are many better choices for boat-building as per MIK's & PAR's lists above. I have a couple of bits in non-critical places on my Teal. The skeg is CCA treated & heavily glassed - weight & strength irrelevant. The untreated gunwale laminations are a constant battle to keep from rotting.
funnily enough, although regarded as a noxious weed species outside of plantations in Oz & NZ, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monterey_Pine says it is in trouble on its home turf... Bear in mind too that in many parts of the world, old-growth had to be cleared first to make way for plantations. In my opinion, selectively saw-logged forests can be the most sensitive way to go (if that is important to you). So much so, that land in SW Tasmania which had been logged by the Bradshaw family and other mill-loggers for over 80 years was declared "pristine wilderness" & locked up as World Heritage Area.
cheers
AJ
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15th June 2008, 05:51 AM #100New Member
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Hmmm.... sounds pretty crappy. They also had some plywood that is advertised as having Radiata pine inner plys with exterior grade glue. I wonder if it as bad as the dimensional stuff?
Thanks for the heads up!
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15th June 2008, 11:59 AM #101
Paul - THANKS HUGELY FOR THE LIST!!! I'll beat it into a set of recommendations and check back with you that I am explaining things well enough!!!!
AJ - Radiata pine is bad because of the growing conditions. I was surprised to find out that the New Zealanders were building high quality raceboats in the beginning of last century out of old growth stuff. Must have been sticking in trees in the middle of their native forests?!? For the Goat, the Radiata makes no sense at all as it is a bit about quality. With lowest common denominator boats that are going to be epoxy sealed - like the PDRs we used a lot of finger jointed radiata for holding the ply bits together - but not in places where it was unsupported by plywood!!!! If anyone sits on it - it will break. The finger jointed stuff needs plywood on TWO faces.
MIK
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15th June 2008, 09:44 PM #102
I 'designed' & built a miniature cat for my daughter out of that stuff.
9mm bottom, 4mm sides & decks.
It actually started life as 2 tiny canoes. The canoes were built to be... disposable, so I didn't worry about the myriad voids, dutchmen & other defects in the veneers until it came to conversion.
To compensate, as far as possible I built all loads & stresses onto the douglas fir/BS1088 pac.maple ply deck.
I drenched every square inch in copper-chromium-borate before painting, which stained the wood a truly 'orrible yellow-green.
It held together quite well, but in a 6ft boat with about 18sq ft sail, there is very little stress. Even so, all screw points had to be doubled or trebled to be sure screws would hold.
Unless sooooo strapped for cash that no alternatives were possible, I'd not use untreated radiata in a boat again, and treated only in places where weight & strength are not an issue. (Last time I bought some, unrated CD exterior radiata ply is no cheaper than malaysian BS1088 pac.maple anyway.)
cheers
AJ
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5th July 2008, 12:41 PM #103Senior Member
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I too enjoyed reading through this list. One quibble, however. Hem-Fir is not really an engineered or hybrid species. It is a mix of boards - both hemlock and lower grade fir species, i.e. Not Douglas Fir (aka Oregon Pine). Typically there's more of the hemlock than fir in the pile. Hemlock is softer, weaker and far, far more rot prone than Doug. Fir (though it's pretty with varnish on it). The net result, though, is as Paul mentioned. The number of sticks in the pile that might be suitable for boatbuilding is small, and it takes careful sorting to find them.
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6th July 2008, 02:24 PM #104
Hi David (arbordg),
Four posts in one day ... must be sailing weather in the air ... or you are hitting the Kikapoo Joy Juice!
I have seen quite a few mentions that you are getting SISU (David's GIS) out to some sailing events! Would you be interested in putting up some pics or links - or copy and pasting some of the reports into here?
David was the first US builder to finish a GIS. All the motoring shots of the GIS are his. David is also a professional woodworker so is listed as a person who can build storerboats to order.
BTW ... I received a couple of photos from Gerry and Nicola who launched their GIS "Jack of Mudjimba" in Queensland last week. YOu can read a bit about Jack the Goat on my blog. I am waiting for some more pics before I post them here too.
Best wishes
Michael
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6th July 2008, 03:55 PM #105Senior Member
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Mik,
I do remember to pop in here every so often. It's fun to see what our Oz brethren are up to. I certainly make an effort to hit the "Joy Juice" every day - but I'm not all that successful. As they say, "Work is the curse of the drinking classes" There are so many great small breweries & distilleries locally, that I just can't seem to keep up with all their new offerings, not to mention returning occasionally to my old favorites. It's a tough job...
Isn't "Jack" a beautiful boat? I love that color scheme. How many GIS's have been built now, that you know of? How many in process? Or do you bother to keep track? If I were you, I'd be like a proud papa every time new fotos came along
New fotos of Sisu, eh? Well, here's a link to the Summer Solstice fotos, with two of our little beauty. One under power with Ol' Jerry at the tiller, and one of me ghosting along in the swirlies at the mouth of Fisherman's Slough on my way back out to the full winds in the Columbia River. Also, check out the cute little 1930 Canadian launch that my friend Brian restored. Very sweet!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jkohnen...7605761327936/
Oh, and here's a few of Sisu on the trailer, with my new boating companion - age c. 4 months, name - Dusty.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/arbordg...7605298526733/
And I'm not sure if you have this set:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/arbordg...7601223191688/
In addition, young man... I have a bone to pick with you. I see a thread titled something like "Favorite GIS fotos". I open it up, and what do I find - nary a foto of the single most beautiful GIS ever constructed (in my always humble, and completely unbiased opinion) Haarrrrrummmmphhh! Well, with all these fotos, you no longer have any excuse
Cheers, Beers & Gluesmears,
David G
"America had often been discovered before Columbus, but it had always been hushed up" -- Oscar Wilde
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